Hotfix 1 for patch 10.3

[Liq]

23 minutes ago, PongoNW said:

"I want to be able to ambush a weaker party in front of their own capital and disappear into a battle instance that denies that party any support then I want to be able to teleport safely out of that invisible instance when the battle is over"

 

I AM HARD CORE LOL

 

this whole game is upside down. 

Thats not gonna happen in infront of a capital as you've got a 3 minute join timer, which even allows ship still in port to leave port, prepare their ship (which took its time IRL), and join the battle.
However, if you're not DIRECTLY at the capital but still somewhere in enemy waters (where you can actually expect to meet someone; I have yet to find a single pvp battle in the middle of the ocean in no nation's waters), if no reinforcements join in 3 minutes BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT AROUND, why would the attacked ship get any help?
IRL (in real life), after an engagement, the victorious captain would sail back to port after engagement, but ingame you can simply call out where you got attacked so that the guys outside can prepare themselves with ease..
Let me give you an example:
I attacked two swedish surprises while being alone in my cecilia. This was not outside the capital, but still in their waters where one can actually expect to find pvp.
Guess what they did? The two chained me to death, so they could leave and then outside join a group of 8 ships to form a 10v1 revenge fleet versus me. As I had to leave to OW at some time, there was just no way I would get away.

Quote from the steam store page:
Naval Action is a hardcore, realistic, and beautifully detailed naval combat sandbox

Having to deal with in-teleporting ships lining up outside your battle is not realistic nor hardcore under my impression. Hardcore = By leaving port you are aware of the risk of loosing the ship. No need to give anyone a second, arcadey chance to take revenge.

But hey, what do I know, only played this game for about 3930 hours, guess I'm still a noob.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Liquicity

[Liq]

5 hours ago, Daguse said:

I do, however if I go into enemy waters, I expect a revenge fleet. It doesn't sound like you do. 

So where exactly do you pvp? wait in your greenzone for someone to actively deliver PvP so you can become part of a revenge fleet?

[Hodo]

27 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

So where exactly do you pvp? wait in your greenzone for someone to actively deliver PvP so you can become part of a revenge fleet?

If I didnt have a cool avatar already this would so be mine!

[Duncan McFail]

The current RoE system is better than it was in the past. No more teleport to friendly port, no more double circle, no more combat logging, and less pesky fleets. I see a lot of people complaining about revenge fleets, but half of these guys are ganking traders a few minutes outside of national capitals and wanting to be able to do that without worries. There's already a ton more people hunting this way than before. You already have the entry timer cut to 3 minutes. Now people want a free pass to tp back to their safe place and never get caught. If you go hunting in enemy waters you should expect to lose your ship. You just want to rack up as much kills and tears until that happens. 

I think the tagging should go back to being positional inside the tag circle. Currently if ship A tags enemy ship from behind and ship B is in front of enemy ship then ship B will appear behind ship A in the instance. Where as if ship B initiated the tag they would both be in front of the ship. 

This 3 minute timer sucks. Keep it open until the battle is done. Make the join area a long triangle from each side with a minimum distance bar that moves further away over time and rapidly. Even joining a few minutes after a battle started would put you pretty far out of the action. Would be nice seeing a battle that's 15 minutes in when you're searching for the parties running up hostility within these big counties.

I know it's been stated that the engine mechanics can't handle it, but it would be nice to see players be able to exit into the open world in the same spot they leave the battle instance from. 

Getting tired of being retagged over and over? How about switch the cannot attack/be attacked timer to just a cannot be attacked timer that increases with each failed attempt. That will take care of counter tagging bs too. Also get rid of the cannot enter battle for 2 minutes.

Bring back the post combat screen. Up to 5 minutes after battle over and you get kicked to post combat screen. Up to 10 minutes after that and you get kicked to open world. Gives you time to relax for a bit before popping out. No battle results banner telling the enemy when you hit open world. Not having to frantically get your repairs done while running for your life. That's assuming repairs would work on the post combat screen and a correct amount consumed. 

The control perk should be a mechanic in every battle instance instead of a perk. I don't share the same opinion on signaling as some do. Open world fights should only be fair by chance and not forced by some game mechanic. 

[Souvlaki]

It seems to me a longer join timer and longer invisibility is the solution, thus any revenge fleet would have to be a reasonable distance away to begin with and either join the initial battle or miss out. I would also make it so the invisibility timer starts counting down immediately after the battle is over, so the longer you stay in an instance the less invisibility you get. I also like the idea of mutual invisibility. Call it fog of war if you will.

 

[Duncan McFail]

3 minutes ago, Souvlaki said:

It seems to me a longer join timer and longer invisibility is the solution, thus any revenge fleet would have to be a reasonable distance away to begin with and either join the initial battle or miss out. I would also make it so the invisibility timer starts counting down immediately after the battle is over, so the longer you stay in an instance the less invisibility you get. I also like the idea of mutual invisibility. Call it fog of war if you will.

 

Currently with a 30 sec invis and 30 sec no combat you need about 10 people to set up a good net depending on land masses and shallows. Before with the 60 sec invis it was pretty easy to ditch that same number of people. You could even start your tp and pull it off if they didn't have anyone close to the center. 60 secs could be cool with the mutual invis. Or maybe small increments after failed tags. 

[Daguse]

1 hour ago, Liquicity said:

So where exactly do you pvp? wait in your greenzone for someone to actively deliver PvP so you can become part of a revenge fleet?

So that's what it's come too, person attacks? What does it matter where I pvp?  However so you can sleep at night, tell recently I pvped in the rat waters.

so the question is do you expect revenge fleets? Or do you want pvp that has no consequences?

 

[Liq]

1 minute ago, Daguse said:

so the question is do you expect revenge fleets? Or do you want pvp that has no consequences?

 

No I frankly don't expect them, if it were to be realistic

I want pvp ressembling the way the game is advertised. no arcadey revenge fleets by surrounding a battle location,

[Cmdr RideZ]

1 hour ago, Duncan McFail said:

The current RoE system is better than it was in the past. No more teleport to friendly port, no more double circle, no more combat logging, and less pesky fleets. I see a lot of people complaining about revenge fleets, but half of these guys are ganking traders a few minutes outside of national capitals and...

Hmm..  This is a hard one, but let me guess...  Hmm...  PvP Global?

[Hodo]

1 hour ago, Duncan McFail said:

The current RoE system is better than it was in the past. No more teleport to friendly port, no more double circle, no more combat logging, and less pesky fleets. I see a lot of people complaining about revenge fleets, but half of these guys are ganking traders a few minutes outside of national capitals and wanting to be able to do that without worries. 

I have yet to be caught and I hunt like that... But right ship for the right job.

38 minutes ago, Daguse said:

So that's what it's come too, person attacks? What does it matter where I pvp?  However so you can sleep at night, tell recently I pvped in the rat waters.

so the question is do you expect revenge fleets? Or do you want pvp that has no consequences?

 

PVP is an important part of your sphincter health.  If you havent PVPed on a regular basis you could end up with Strictasphinctus, which is a common but treatable affliction that affects millions of gamers of all genders and races.  It is far more common in the carebear class of gamer but can be found in the hardcore also.   Luckily there is cure, proper administration of PVP.   (this is a joke people calm down.)

[TommyShelby]

Personally I'd be fine with increased invisibility.

But previous testing has shown that it will be abused and heavily even. But I mean, we keep going back to stuff we tested already which didn't work so why not do the same with invisibility?

I've made several suggestions (that compromise) and honestly I can't do much more. Other than start abusing the mechanics to show people how much they suck.. something i really don't want to do because it's not fun imo.

[Daguse]

26 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

Personally I'd be fine with increased invisibility.

But previous testing has shown that it will be abused and heavily even. But I mean, we keep going back to stuff we tested already which didn't work so why not do the same with invisibility?

I've made several suggestions (that compromise) and honestly I can't do much more. Other than start abusing the mechanics to show people how much they suck.. something i really don't want to do because it's not fun imo.

Please explain when and what was abused with the invisibility I suggested? I'm more then willing to admit it won't work if you can provide details on why.

1 hour ago, Otto Kohl said:

I'm 100% sure its correct description of "pvpers" that like current mechanics.

I haven't seen anyone that hasn't supported some sort of change to the system.

1 hour ago, Retired said:

No I frankly don't expect them, if it were to be realistic

I want pvp ressembling the way the game is advertised. no arcadey revenge fleets by surrounding a battle location,

So first I got to ask, if you don't expect revenge fleets, please do share where you pvp. Maybe we can use that as a case study for the rest of the game. Everywhere else seems to have them.

and I agree it would be nice to do away with them. Got a suggestion?

[Koltes]

7 hours ago, rediii said:

what? you get sent to next freeport or national port like before. No choosing where you get teleportet ofc...

So we go back to imposibility to hunt traders? Antone with brains will defense tag and tp...

[Jarlath Morrow]

4 minutes ago, koltes said:

So we go back to imposibility to hunt traders? Antone with brains will defense tag and tp...

Yep. And even that is assuming they didn't already tag an AI fleet halfway from their production port and disappear into their destination port without being seen.

[Sureshot]

12 minutes ago, koltes said:

So we go back to imposibility to hunt traders? Antone with brains will defense tag and tp...

The suggestion was if you get attacked by a revenge fleet and they fail you get exit to friendly port. Now why? Because you escaped. But this would only be if you got attacked, if you attack AI or defensive tag it will not give you the option. Only when you are attacked by a revenge fleet. This stops players from getting tagged over and over for hours. 

[Jarlath Morrow]

2 hours ago, Duncan McFail said:

Currently with a 30 sec invis and 30 sec no combat you need about 10 people to set up a good net depending on land masses and shallows. Before with the 60 sec invis it was pretty easy to ditch that same number of people. You could even start your tp and pull it off if they didn't have anyone close to the center. 60 secs could be cool with the mutual invis. Or maybe small increments after failed tags. 

I really like the idea of the invisibility increasing after repeated tags.

3 minutes ago, SeaHyena said:

The suggestion was if you get attacked by a revenge fleet and they fail you get exit to friendly port. Now why? Because you escaped. But this would only be if you got attacked, if you attack AI or defensive tag it will not give you the option. Only when you are attacked by a revenge fleet. This stops players from getting tagged over and over for hours. 

I don't like the teleport, but I have to admit it's better than infinite-revenge tags.

Whatever we try next I hope we get it soon so we can fully test out, for better or worse.

[Prater]

Basic Brigs and such need to be removed from level 1 missions.  Put them in level 2 missions, and add a basic brig to the shop like the basic cutter:

Also, make it so basic ships can only carry class 9 and 10 cannons.

 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Prater

[Cmdr RideZ]

They could just relocate you to area that has no enemies right next to.

[Koltes]

1 hour ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

They could just relocate you to area that has no enemies right next to.

Would be good, but I dont think its possible with the current code. You could potentially end up in the middle of an island. TP needs to be tied to an object like a port.

Now what they could have done is to employ an invisible grid marks that covers the entire map that is only located on water (no grid near or on land). You would TPed to closest grid mark on the water. Still within visibility of the revenge fleet, but with great chance of escape

Edited June 28, 2017 by koltes

[Daguse]

1 hour ago, koltes said:

Would be good, but I dont think its possible with the current code. You could potentially end up in the middle of an island. TP needs to be tied to an object like a port.

Now what they could have done is to employ an invisible grid marks that covers the entire map that is only located on water (no grid near or on land). You would TPed to closest grid mark on the water. Still within visibility of the revenge fleet, but with great chance of escape

Hmm, I'd be willing to try it. Maybe add distance for each successful escape. 

[JeanJacques de Montpellier]

Some trivial considerations on Revenge Fleets

• Revenge fleets are not realistic:i don't know how some players say that revenge fleets are historically realistic. I'm afraid these people don't know anything about naval history. In that case silence is a great choice.
• Revenge fleets are not funny to play: i think there is not even much to comment on. What is the point to play 10 vs 2?
• Revenge fleets are stupid: yes, they are, and not for the previews points, but for a razional use to the force. Spend 10 ships for fight only 2 is a bad use of numbers. When i returned after sea trials in NA and found the ow, i was amazed at how the players prefer to get into fights already really overnumber, an expenditure of perhaps foolish. Total ignorance. Let me briefly compare the situation with air- sim. If i am flying with 3 other friends (4 planes so) and we see only 1 enemy, we use 2 planes (pair) to attack him, while the other pair is in cover or do ather things. Even the case of Liquicity shows some players ignorance. 2 surprises can fight 1 Santa Cecilia, if you do not take too many risks, chain him on begining of the fight. I must say that the other hobbies as well as join the Reverge Fleets is to fight against the AI. I don't know which one of them is worse.

Many comments to not say the most obvious thing:
The game worked well with double circles and exit to port.

 

 

[Daguse]

5 minutes ago, JeanJacques de Montpellier said:

Some trivial considerations on Revenge Fleets

• Revenge fleets are not realistic:i don't know how some players say that revenge fleets are historically realistic. I'm afraid these people don't know anything about naval history. In that case silence is a great choice.
• Revenge fleets are not funny to play: i think there is not even much to comment on. What is the point to play 10 vs 2?
• Revenge fleets are stupid: yes, they are, and not for the previews points, but for a razional use to the force. Spend 10 ships for fight only 2 is a bad use of numbers. When i returned after sea trials in NA and found the ow, i was amazed at how the players prefer to get into fights already really overnumber, an expenditure of perhaps foolish. Total ignorance. Let me briefly compare the situation with air- sim. If i am flying with 3 other friends (4 planes so) and we see only 1 enemy, we use 2 planes (pair) to attack him, while the other pair is in cover or do ather things. Even the case of Liquicity shows some players ignorance. 2 surprises can fight 1 Santa Cecilia, if you do not take too many risks, chain him on begining of the fight. I must say that the other hobbies as well as join the Reverge Fleets is to fight against the AI. I don't know which one of them is worse.

Many comments to not say the most obvious thing:
The game worked well with double circles and exit to port.

 

 

From the historic aspect. I would say most of that is correct. However governments did send ships to hunt down pirate in efforts to secure their waters, one could argue that is a form of a revenge fleet. 

From the game aspect. Allowing players to go into enemy waters and attack with no repercussions is not fun for anyone. There has to be risk.

Exit to port is a form of tp, and tp removes players from OW. Personally I'm against anything that pulls people from OW in enemy waters. 

I think we have a few options.

Extend two way invisibility with increased speed and duration for recurring tags. Or random exit locations. 

[JobaSet]

13 hours ago, Aphilas said:

Doubt he does. Basic cutter scouts that simply follow any group worth attention and summoning revenge fleet is common practice now. Just yesterday had 4-5 hours of battles vs 25+ spanish like that.

Sits in greenzone and refuses to give battle, then sends basic cutter to follow your group. After exiting epic event voila 25 spanish including 1st and 2nd rates. That's to meet our 10-15 group of 5th-4th rates.

 

Another amazing "tactic" is to tag bots in front of active town and sail away during NPC battle. Have a cutter outside camping waiting for someone to leave port. This one should be countered that if no damage done for 5 mins it kicks everyone out of the battle.

If you go into waters that are not yours prepare to sink

[JobaSet]

@admin you know how I keep telling you about 30 or so guys that you should just ignore.  

Case and Point....... Revenge is not a problem its the Solution.  It stops the Stupid 15km Ships that can't take any kind of a hit from coming down and killing newbs or forcing 1st rates to their death from AI while doing missions.  If you go into enemy waters, you need to Stop your crying when you Die.The real problem is they just sailed for 30 plus mins and died after one attack in our waters and they think that is not fair. to them Tuff Shit get out of our waters SNOWFLAKE...  If you change this in any way to help the real gankers or the 2-5 ships jumping 1 ship or  mission in enemy waters........we will be right back to where we were as a Carebear server we are already 90% there now .

[Sureshot]

22 minutes ago, JobaSet said:

Case and Point....... Revenge is not a problem its the Solution.  It stops the Stupid 15km Ships 

So you are saying surrounding enemy on open world from all sides while you hold them in the instance only to let them go to, tag again and make your slow ships faster than theirs is a completely fair tactic? Tell me that's not taking advantage of bad mechanics to make slow 10-11 kn ships faster than a 15 kn frigate. I'm sure they did that in age of sail too with teamspeak. The fact some people think this is fine is just hilarious. 

Quote

you know how I keep telling you about 30 or so guys that you should just ignore.  

I find this funny, some of these guys are the most hardcore PvPers on the game. They usually fight the odds and have been testers since 2014-2015. But yeah, just ignore the guys who have done 3-6k+ hours of PvP. Obviously they know nothing.

Edited June 28, 2017 by SeaHyena