Constitution vs Endymion

[Captain Lust]

It seems that with the new speed limit Endymion is worse than ever. Its sailing profile couldn't be much worse and the high base speed that is supposed to make up for it is somewhat useless when i can just stack speed mods on the constitution. Is there still anything that makes Endymion worth sailing? I have really been meaning to build myself one lately for its awesome looks alone but i feel like i should get the constitution instead...

[Chustler]

This is why the speed issue as it stands right now is so ridiculous.  Half the ships in the game lose their usefulness when speed mods can be stacked so effectively on the big guys.

[Slamz]

The theory as I see it:

Endy speed advantage is still an advantage because if you want to speed cap a Connie you have to cripple it. We'd need to do the math to be sure about this but I'm betting that if you got a Connie up to 15 knots it would be by making it fir/fir, putting several speed mods with various negative effects on it and maybe even reducing its guns.

In the end, you would have a total piece of crap Connie that's mainly good at running and is terrible at fighting.

Meanwhile you take an Endy, build it and mod it with SOME speed improvements but also with SOME tanky features and you have a 15 knot ship that is actually worth a damn and can still fight.

In summary, yes, I bet you can make a 15 knot Endy and a 15 knot Connie and the 15 knot Endy would totally kick the 15 knot Connie's ass.

[Hodo]

The only reason I could see the use of an Endymion over the Constitution is the acceleration.  The Endy would accelerate and retain speed better than the Constitution.  

But I agree with Chustler 100%, the lack of speed caps based on ship not a blanket cap would fix some of these issues. 

[Lordicious]

Speed ceilings must be adjusted for each rate. 

What we have now up to 4th rate, and then slowly climb down as it moves towards 1st rates. 

Edited June 21, 2017 by Lordicious

[DeRuyter]

Interestingly looking at @jodgi updated speed thread with the new spreadsheet of base speed the Endymion reaches @135 degrees is 13.7 and the Constitution is 10.9.

As an aside the Constitution's highest recorded speed was 14 knts over an hour. That drops to 10.3 knts over 24 hours though.

[jodgi]

4 minutes ago, DeRuyter said:

and the Constitution is 10.9.

nobody has updated the connie yet, just set at 11 for reasons. I'm sure connie will be updated as I think quite a few have em.

edit:

I haven't tried it, so it's all theorycrafting, but... Endy being so fast what happens when you go for tankier woods then speedmods vs. connie's lighter woods + speedmods. Do they end up "the same"?

I dislike speedmods strongly. The crafting choices should be the only speedmods. Then you have ships with a clear personality that you can twist a bit but not too much.

Edited June 21, 2017 by jodgi
to comment on OP

[DeRuyter]

@jodgi oops jumped the gun a bit then. Yes I do know of speed fit Connie's going very close to the 14 knts cap in game. I also know of one that got caught and sunk!

Still there should be some limits on speed mod stacking.

Edited June 21, 2017 by DeRuyter

[jodgi]

19 minutes ago, DeRuyter said:

oops jumped the gun a bit then

Based on the mysterious "max speed" value the connie could be ever so slightly slower than a frig; let's say 12.25 to the frig's 12.3. I just threw that number into the sheet as a dirty temp fix.

edit:

9.94 connie was 11.4 @ 135 and with full long guns.

Edited June 21, 2017 by jodgi
old speedtests

[Sir Texas Sir]

The Endy should keep it's good speed so you have to only put a a speed mod or two and than you can build it out of better wood than say a Coonie or any other ship that your speed capping.  They need to bring Mast damage back to between last hotfix/patch and the merge.   The whole reason folks where doing so much demasting was it was the fastest way to slow these speed demons down.  They where snapping like twigs cause most of them was made out of fir or something else light.   I should be blowing the tops of these Surprises and Rennoms mast off while chasing them in my Aggy/Trincs that are only slightly speed fitted to keep up with the pack until the fast guys slow down their fast guys.  Though now it's every one speed fits and if you don't have more than a few guys on your team you can't slow down a lone speed ship with the repairs and extra thickness of mast.

[akd]

3 minutes ago, Slamz said:

The theory as I see it:

Endy speed advantage is still an advantage because if you want to speed cap a Connie you have to cripple it. We'd need to do the math to be sure about this but I'm betting that if you got a Connie up to 15 knots it would be by making it fir/fir, putting several speed mods with various negative effects on it and maybe even reducing its guns.

In the end, you would have a total piece of crap Connie that's mainly good at running and is terrible at fighting.

Meanwhile you take an Endy, build it and mod it with SOME speed improvements but also with SOME tanky features and you have a 15 knot ship that is actually worth a damn and can still fight.

In summary, yes, I bet you can make a 15 knot Endy and a 15 knot Connie and the 15 knot Endy would totally kick the 15 knot Connie's ass.

This would be true if it were not for the massive, illogical speed nerf to Endymion close-hauled.

[King of Crowns]

4 hours ago, Chustler said:

This is why the speed issue as it stands right now is so ridiculous.  Half the ships in the game lose their usefulness when speed mods can be stacked so effectively on the big guys.

if they just removed the speed cap it would be fine.

[ajffighter86]

Given the 34 knot open-world speed of the Endymion and the series of armor nerfs the connie has been suffering over the past week, I'd go with the endymion.

Many here in the US joke that if they keep nerfing the constitution then they might as well make it a 5th rate. It really doesn't stand up to anything in its own class, and would be over-powered in a lower class. But then again the 5th rates could probably be split between heavy and lighter frigates.

[Captain corn blower]

On 6/21/2017 at 1:29 PM, Hodo said:

The only reason I could see the use of an Endymion over the Constitution is the acceleration.  The Endy would accelerate and retain speed better than the Constitution.  

But I agree with Chustler 100%, the lack of speed caps based on ship not a blanket cap would fix some of these issues. 

In stead of making cap there again going backwards with the game once you put something in place , make all mods available for all ships and stackable . that's what we won't is to get the edge over a another ship . that the reason for perks and mods 

[Cmdr RideZ]

Mod bonuses are way too big.

15kn cap is broken game design.

[CaptVonGunn]

On 6/21/2017 at 11:30 AM, DeRuyter said:

Interestingly looking at @jodgi updated speed thread with the new spreadsheet of base speed the Endymion reaches @135 degrees is 13.7 and the Constitution is 10.9.

As an aside the Constitution's highest recorded speed was 14 knts over an hour. That drops to 10.3 knts over 24 hours though.

Yes but that was a Live Oak build with Cooper plating... People are building Teak teak ect and throwing it all out of wack

 

[Guest]

On 21/6/2017 at 10:57 PM, Slamz said:

The theory as I see it:

Endy speed advantage is still an advantage because if you want to speed cap a Connie you have to cripple it. We'd need to do the math to be sure about this but I'm betting that if you got a Connie up to 15 knots it would be by making it fir/fir, putting several speed mods with various negative effects on it and maybe even reducing its guns.

In the end, you would have a total piece of crap Connie that's mainly good at running and is terrible at fighting.

Meanwhile you take an Endy, build it and mod it with SOME speed improvements but also with SOME tanky features and you have a 15 knot ship that is actually worth a damn and can still fight.

In summary, yes, I bet you can make a 15 knot Endy and a 15 knot Connie and the 15 knot Endy would totally kick the 15 knot Connie's ass.

Well.. Not true.

The Connie is the superior ship in every way. A Bermuda frame/planking connie with gazelle, copperplating and Bovenwinds refit will be able to have a full compliment of guns, hull and rig repairs and the captain would need 2-3 speed knowledge slots to make it go 15kn. I can personally recommend art of shiphandling (+4% speed), Optimized ballast (+3% speed) and art of proper cargo distribution (+4% speed). No negative effects from anything but the frame+planks and it will still have more armor, more guns, more crew (undercrew is a serious problem on the Endymion) and a better sailing profile than the Endymion. Simple because the base armor from the start is so much larger than the Endymions. At the moment there really is only two ships recommendable for captains wanting to go the EZ route - the surprise if you're poor, or the connie if you can afford the copperplating. Everything else is redundant.

I say this even though I've unlocked the 4 and almost the 5th slot on the Endymion, I love the ship, the looks and its history. Shame that the worlds most seaworthy frigate, the fastest frigate bearing sails in the period we use here and a ship prized for its shiphandling both running with the wind and across the beam, has become nothing more than a cruel joke to anyone but the most incarnate masochists. But facts remain - if you want the best ship of the two? - The connie wins every day of the week. Better armor, more guns, better balance between crew compliment and requirements, better sailing profile, easier to handle, more manouverable and even with a speed build it's the better ship by far. The problem arises when you've got so poor mechanics that you can get a fully outfitted Bellona to 15kn - a lot of ships could easily be removed and we'd lose nothing but an aesthetic value in the game. And perhaps a few masochists.

[Slamz]

8 minutes ago, Bearwall said:

A Bermuda frame/planking connie

Bermuda/Bermuda Connie has 1" more side armor than a Teak/Teak Endy.

Question is what's the best wood you can build an Endy out of and still hit max speed? Teak/WO Endy would actually be thicker than the B/B Connie and still gives a 3.5% speed bonus.

But I would agree that even if you can eek out a better build at the same speed it surely wouldn't outweigh the other advantages of the Connie.

Endy might really just be the more-noob ship in the sense that if you don't yet have all the fancy speed mods, it's easier to make an Endy that can at least keep out of reach of max speed connies, versus trying to make a noobish Connie that won't outrun a single thing.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Slamz said:

Bermuda/Bermuda Connie has 1" more side armor than a Teak/Teak Endy.

Question is what's the best wood you can build an Endy out of and still hit max speed? Teak/WO Endy would actually be thicker than the B/B Connie and still gives a 3.5% speed bonus.

But I would agree that even if you can eek out a better build at the same speed it surely wouldn't outweigh the other advantages of the Connie.

Endy might really just be the more-noob ship in the sense that if you don't yet have all the fancy speed mods, it's easier to make an Endy that can at least keep out of reach of max speed connies, versus trying to make a noobish Connie that won't outrun a single thing.

Why would any noob make a ship that costs 75 combat marks, turns like a brick, can't outfight anything resembling a larger opponent (has zero advantages) and is generally undercrewed? - The noobs go for the surp. When they become richer noobs they go for the connie. No sane player would go for the 7th rates, the 6th rates, the cerb, reno, frig, trinc, endymion ships (did I forget anyone?). No matter how fast the endymion runs it will still be hugely dependant on the direction of the wind - a disadvantage that is a lot less apparent in the connie and almost non-existent in the surp. And the teak/WO would require three perma speed upgrades + three knowledge slots with speed upgrades to do 15kn (If we take 50 hull, 50 rig and 112 rum in the hold). Considering that an extented hunting trip would require more supplies then the endy would be at a speed disadvantage as well..

[Captain Lust]

16 hours ago, Bearwall said:

Well.. Not true.

The Connie is the superior ship in every way. A Bermuda frame/planking connie with gazelle, copperplating and Bovenwinds refit will be able to have a full compliment of guns, hull and rig repairs and the captain would need 2-3 speed knowledge slots to make it go 15kn. I can personally recommend art of shiphandling (+4% speed), Optimized ballast (+3% speed) and art of proper cargo distribution (+4% speed). No negative effects from anything but the frame+planks and it will still have more armor, more guns, more crew (undercrew is a serious problem on the Endymion) and a better sailing profile than the Endymion. Simple because the base armor from the start is so much larger than the Endymions. At the moment there really is only two ships recommendable for captains wanting to go the EZ route - the surprise if you're poor, or the connie if you can afford the copperplating. Everything else is redundant.

I say this even though I've unlocked the 4 and almost the 5th slot on the Endymion, I love the ship, the looks and its history. Shame that the worlds most seaworthy frigate, the fastest frigate bearing sails in the period we use here and a ship prized for its shiphandling both running with the wind and across the beam, has become nothing more than a cruel joke to anyone but the most incarnate masochists. But facts remain - if you want the best ship of the two? - The connie wins every day of the week. Better armor, more guns, better balance between crew compliment and requirements, better sailing profile, easier to handle, more manouverable and even with a speed build it's the better ship by far. The problem arises when you've got so poor mechanics that you can get a fully outfitted Bellona to 15kn - a lot of ships could easily be removed and we'd lose nothing but an aesthetic value in the game. And perhaps a few masochists.

This is exactly what i came to realize.... it is very similar with Renommeé and Surprise.... very poor balancing...

[Lovec1990]

Guys i think comparing Endymoin and Constitution is wrong, becouse Endy is fast frigate good for hunting traders while Connie is Super frigate designed too bully other frigates and outrun Ships of the line.

My Connie is Live Oak/White Oak version and is a tank with 80cm side armor but speed and turn rate suffer with Bow figure- Gaselle installed its max speed is 11,45kn and turn rate is 2,35. speed build Endymoin can easily outrun mine connie, but cannot beat it in broadside fight

[Guest]

No reason to take the Endy over the Connie.

I had tried to unlock 3-4 slots on the Indefatigable and managed to push it to around 15 knots with teak/bermuda - since it was easy enough to continue gaining experience via the redeemable ships. Only to realize that the only reason to sail an Indy instead of a Connie is pretty much just the hull slope.

Everyone and their dog is sailing a surprise nowadays since its sailing profile is in a class of its own (at least until we get Santa Cecilias).

Edited July 16, 2017 by Guest

[Captain corn blower]

On 6/21/2017 at 1:32 PM, Lordicious said:

Speed ceilings must be adjusted for each rate. 

What we have now up to 4th rate, and then slowly climb down as it moves towards 1st rates. 

Everything in system needs recal a niagara permit cost more then a Connie permit and so on . 

[Guest]

On 16/7/2017 at 11:33 AM, Lovec1990 said:

Guys i think comparing Endymoin and Constitution is wrong, becouse Endy is fast frigate good for hunting traders while Connie is Super frigate designed too bully other frigates and outrun Ships of the line.

My Connie is Live Oak/White Oak version and is a tank with 80cm side armor but speed and turn rate suffer with Bow figure- Gaselle installed its max speed is 11,45kn and turn rate is 2,35. speed build Endymoin can easily outrun mine connie, but cannot beat it in broadside fight

You're entirely missing the point. A tank-build connie versus a tank-build endymion? - the connie wins any day of the week. A speedbuildt connie vs a speedbuild endymion? - the connie wins any day of the week. That is the problem. No person in their right mind would sail an endymion. It has a piss-poor sailing-profile, a worse turn-rate than a 74-gun Bellona (and a worse sailing profile to boot) and the speed-buildt Connie still has more armor. The problem of the current speed meta is that I can get a Bellona to 15kn, with guns and repairs installed and the freaking 74-gun, third rate ship of the line - will still out turn, out gun, out run and out last an Endymion. No other ship in the game is as useless on the bare stats than the endymion.

But I still love it. Why? - the history of the ship and the looks. And apparently because I'm a masochist. Not because of any ingame use for the ship.

[Cecil Selous]

On 7/16/2017 at 11:33 AM, Lovec1990 said:

Guys i think comparing Endymoin and Constitution is wrong, becouse Endy is fast frigate good for hunting traders while Connie is Super frigate designed too bully other frigates and outrun Ships of the line.

Funny when you think about the fact that USS President surrendered to Endymion. I know this might be right for the game but it is still kind of ironic

[DeRuyter]

13 hours ago, Cecil Selous said:

Funny when you think about the fact that USS President surrendered to Endymion. I know this might be right for the game but it is still kind of ironic

True but she only surrendered when the rest of the British squadron came up and started firing. President was giving it to Endymion at first. We'll never know if President could have escaped because she damaged her hull and sprung her mainmast running aground. Although we do know that both President and Endymion were distancing the rest of the ships.