What's wrong post wipe or why it sucks to solo

[Fengist]

I decided to do something which is now apparently stupid.  I deleted my old character and erased all of his xp and crafting xp and decided to start over fresh after the wipe. Doing so gave me a perspective into this game that most of the old players who used their redeemables don't have.  I have been critical of these changes in numerous forum posts and it seems my criticisms have been ignored as every patch makes it even WORSE for the noob.  Therefore, here I shall try to be less cynical and detail what I see wrong with the game now.

My noob perspective.

This game has become a massive boring grind now.  Before the wipe, I had fun.  Now I have aggravation and disgust.  I end up face-desking more to stay awake while playing rather than as a result of absurdity.  I assumed the wipe was coming as a result of the bug that allowed upgrades to essentially be copied and thus ruined the economy. I had NO IDEA this game would have it's mechanics bastardized into what it is now.  

Issue 1 - The removal of noobs capitals.

Now noobs are dumped in the middle of all the old players. Instead of having to worry about Mercury's and Brigs, noobs now have to contend with Surprises and Indefs... Yes, I had an Indef tag my basic cutter before they got turned into a PVE tool.  Pre-wipe, the shallows was a fun place to go with smaller ships and hunt traders. A place to get the hang of the game without having to contend with Belle Poule's. Now, noobs get a baptism by fire.  One of my first pvp fights was in a BC vs another noob in a BC (pre-wipe).  It was a nail biter for me but I won.  Another pre-wipe fight?  My BC vs a noob in a Rattle.  Again, a nail biter.  I started off graping his crew and forced him to run.  Now, I have Rear Admirals tag me with their fully equipped Surprise.  Right, that's loads of fun.

*Edit*

And proof in the pudding, I was out hunting traders and just had my Snow tagged by a Surprise and a Renom. My rank says I'm a noob. While I'm not saying they shouldn't have done this, I would have, what I am saying is that I'm now forced into battles where I'm hopelessly outclassed and outgunned because the balancing effect of the shallows is gone.  Had I been in any other Rank 6 square rigger and were I not as familiar with the abilities of my ship as I am, I doubt I would have escaped.  Is this really the pvp experience the dev's want noobs to have?  

Result:  Fun -1

Issue 2 - Non-capturing of AI ships

This results in noobs not being able to get into crafting or trading unless they do so in a basic cutter with extremely limited cargo holds (they either have to buy or build a trader).  It also reduces the income resources available to noobs. Before I would scrap the ships I captured for the minute resources they had so that I could build parts. I even hung onto a captured TBrig and used it to begin my crafting career.  Now, that's gone.  It also takes away the ability to test a captured ship to see if they even like it before building or buying one.  Furthermore it's just totally unrealistic. I just boarded a ship and beat it's crew to a pulp. Now, my options are to sink it... or sink it.  Whut?

Result: Fun - 1

Issue 4 - BC No longer smuggler

The BC was stripped of the ability to enter foreign ports with the smuggler flag on.  So, as a noob, you're forced to trade with your nation.  If your nation doesn't have the resource you want, tough shit.

Result: Grind + 1

Issue 3 - Loot

Trader loot just sucks now.  Period.  Why the hell would I risk an expensive ship against a fully armed trader for 36 FISH MEAT?????? Hunting AI traders as a source of income has just become pointless.  

Result: Fun - 1, Grind + 1

Issue 4 - Crafting

It now costs a noob a fortune to get into crafting, both guns and ships.  And the only way to get skills up is to craft actual ships.  This forces new players into either pve or pvp to make money in order to start crafting.  It costs 150,000 (let's just ignore the resources) to build a shipyard.  That equates to about 7-10 HOURS of missions in a BC.  Not everyone is going to excel in combat.  Some people enjoy building and creating.  Before, this was a possible career avenue.  Now, the door has been slammed. Either you learn to fight and grind or go play minecraft.

Result: Fun -1

Issue 5 - AI Damage

I dunno what the hell changed to the AI damage tables but it's BS.  I had an AI Brig wipe out half the armor on my Snow in one broadside.  Meanwhile it takes me 8-10 volley's to take out theirs.  And this wasn't a matter of Carros vs Longs. I pulled out to long gun range thinking I'd punish them from a distance, and they still were able to hit my hull with extreme precision. This makes taking on combat ships for noobs, either in missions or OW, a HUGE risk.  I had to resort to spending 30-45 minutes trying to take the masts down so I didn't get obliterated in one volley. And now, even that option has been essentially removed by constantly increasing mast hp.  If you're not in a BC, damage costs you resources, and that's assuming you can even find the resources to buy.

Result: Fun - 1, Grind + 1

Issue 6 - AI Traders with guns and escorts

When it becomes easier and safer for a noob in a BC to take on a LGV instead of a TBrig because it has no stern chasers then something is wrong!  While it may be amusing as a player to essentially set up a Q-Ship, equipping AI traders with full guns increases the risk and time it takes to bring a TSnow or TBrig down.  Considering loot sucks now, it's not worth the effort.  LGV's are a safer option for the noob.  This makes no sense.  While running into an armed trader may have happened upon occasion in reality, having ALL of them armed, it's pointless to even call them a trader, especially since their loot will be SALT!

And, with the addition of escorts, this pretty much eliminated this as a financial resource for noobs.  Instead of taking on a 2 gun TBrig, you're now taking on an 20 gun TBrig and a 12 gun Pickle.  Your reward assuming you can actually defeat them... FISH MEAT! 

And seriously, what's the point of having this option and calling them 2 different ships?  What player in his right mind would NOT equip a TBrig with 20 guns?  The minute difference in speed?  Seriously?  Why would you buy a normal brig when you can have a fully gunned tbrig with a LOT bigger cargo hold?  The minute difference in speed?  Really?

Admin has confirmed that loading guns on a TBrig does not reduce the cargo hold of that ship except for the normal amount the guns take. 

Result: Fun - 1: Grind + 1

Issue 7 - Inability to PVP in the BC/Ship costs

You just forced noobs into a situation where they either lose a ship that could have taken them hours to acquire or not pvp at all.  Again, baptism by fire.  Even if two noobs should happen to meet up and pvp and it's not a case of who has more repairs than the other and assuming one wins and the other loses, it till take the loser potentially hours of trading, grinding, etc. to make up for that loss.  So the question is, is pvp for a noob even worth it since the potential losses severely outweigh the potential gains.

In other similiar OW games the cost of low level ships is easily affordable by noobs.  While a loss may cause some financial pain, it won't be devastating.  Prices in other games are scaled according to the player they're designed for.  Early ships are cheap while the ships designed for higher level players are super expensive.  If I spent hours if not days (some of us have a non-NA life) getting the money for a nice player made Snow and then lost it within an hour, I'd uninstall.  The thought of having to do that repeatedly until I got the nuances of a particular ship down pat would be enough to tell me it's not worth my time.

Result: Fun - 1 and/or Grind + 1

Issue 8 - PVP/PVE Marks

Again, you just forced players into playing the way YOU want them to.  I have spent quite a few hours since the wipe playing as a noob and I have ZERO pvp marks.  The reason for this is A. the inability to find anyone to pvp that I can even possibly handle (when you're in a pickle you don't go after Indef's) and B. Noobs in the shallows are gone.  Even if I do go out hunting around another nations waters and find someone that I might be able to win a fight against I've found there's a good chance they'll have buddies jump out of port join in.  And, if I hang around my nations ports, then there's a good chance they're hunting me.  10 pvp fights, 0 wins, 0 losses.  Why?  Either I spent 15 minutes beating their sails to a pulp only to watch them repair to full in less than a minute and sail away, or I did the same trick.  Me vs Niagra, Mercury, Snow, Pickle.  I had more repairs available and was easily able to outrun them.

PVE marks.  Ok, get this.  It would take SIXTY SEVEN MISSIONS in a BC to get one refit from PVE marks.  SIXTY SEVEN.  You want an elite refit... 100 missions. Yea, that's right, ONE HUNDRED.  How long would it take you to do SIXTY SEVEN MISSIONS in a BC?

 

*Edit*

PVP/PVE marks combined.  A definite step in the right direction!

I still think upgrades and such should be craftable.

Result: Fun -1, Grind + 1

Issue 9 - Economy

Oh, this is one huge bag of worms that I'm reluctant to even open.  But here goes one example.  In order to purchase an NPC built Snow with a full set of even medium 4's it would take a noob in a BC 10-15 missions.  Assuming this is a really skilled noob and it only takes them 30 minutes to win a fight in a mission, that's 3-5 HOURS of grinding.  And this doesn't even include the cost of the crew or repair consumables they'll need.  Now... imagine that noob gets caught with his shorts down (yea, it just happened to me, was watching the Renom and did't see the Surp) and loses that Snow.  Another 3-5 hours of grinding for making a mistake we've probably all made.  I think the admin summed it up once in a post saying - "The beatings will continue until morale improves."  He summed up the noob experience in one sentence.

Right now, the only thing, and I mean ONLY thing that's keeping my head financially above water are sealed bottles.  Selling the labor hours is my only real source of income.  Are there other sources around?  Yes.  Are they a huge time sink?  Yes.

Result: Fun -1, Grind +1

-----------------------------------------------

TLDR

In a recent post I saw the Admin... well... chastise a player for complaining about the economy.  The Admin said, "This is a sandbox, is it not."  

To which I reply, "No, it's not a sandbox if you keep dropping cinder blocks in it."

-----------------------------------------------

And this is just off the top of my head.  Feel free to add your own and as I remember more I will.

And spare me the 'learn to play' comments.  I'm not a complete noob.  I realize there are 'options'.  I'm trying to provide a noob's perspective.

 

Edited June 24, 2017 by Fengist

[Captain Lust]

You raise some very vaild and true points but the BC shouldn't be able to do pvp and at the same time be free to use. The players you could attack sail ships that actually cost something and they actually worked for them... so either no pvp for basic cutter or basic cutter should give pvp marks. I wonder if you want noobs to be farmed in their basic cutter for pvp marks... because wasting peoples time with ships that give no rewards is no option.

[Fengist]

13 minutes ago, Captain Lust said:

You raise some very vaild and true points but the BC shouldn't be able to do pvp and at the same time be free to use. The players you could attack sail ships that actually cost something and they actually worked for them... so either no pvp for basic cutter or basic cutter should give pvp marks. I wonder if you want noobs to be farmed in their basic cutter for pvp marks... because wasting peoples time with ships that give no rewards is no option.

The pre-wipe solution to this problem worked fine.  It did cost gold to buy but it wasn't outrageously priced like non-BC ships are now.  Why it was changed is beyond me.  Noobs could stay in the shallows with their BC and, as I gave an example of, have a chance at winning, or at least a draw, against a 6th rate.  There were player traders running the shallows they could hunt and yes, those that hunted them.  Now, they have to dodge EVERY class of ship.  Pre-wipe cutters were not 'farmed' to any degree.  I sailed mine around for weeks, even upgraded to a gold cutter because I like the ship so well.  Nobody farmed me.

Now, the Pirates own all of the shallows (for the moment) so if you are a Pirate you're have nothing to hunt because nobody comes there except pirates.  And suggesting a solo noob turn rogue is asking a bit much. Yes, pirates are supposed to be difficult to play.  It's beyond difficult with all the other changes, now it's absurd.

And you're right.  Why waste time pvp'ing a ship that gives 0 rewards.  My question is, is making a noob ship that's essentially immune to pvp the answer???  Their options now, no pvp or face a loss that could take hours of playing to recover from.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Fengist

[Fengist]

2 hours ago, Amonacc said:

could you think about admirals on BC and revise your opinion? Because that is a real problem. Only newcomer can apeal to such things... Cutter for 0 reward could prevent you from taking reward from another ship. Exactly that they usually do. And that is a brilliant decission to forbid pvp to them.

The addition of PVP marks makes this a problem.  Before, when refits and modules were crafted, this was not a problem.

And tell me, now 'realistic' is this? You see a ship on the open ocean but you're not 'allowed' to attack them?  You try to get close and fire your guns and they simply refuse to shoot???  I thot this was the age of sail... that would take some serious technology.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Fengist

[Fengist]

Rant removed

Edited June 19, 2017 by Fengist

[Fengist]

26 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Yup. I did a similar experiment and have posted elsewhere about my impressions, but they are more or less exactly in line with yours.  Though I do disagree about the newb zones, I think putting some artificial RoE in the Bahamas was a terrible mistake. Instead, I think newbs should be privateer class, with no nation until perhaps 2nd Lieutenant, maybe longer?  Where then they apply/select a nation or go pirate based on their experiences. That way you could then impose certain RoE restrictions on privateers (can't tag them, they can't tag nationals, though can join battles on any side, etc.), give them crafting/trading concessions, and ease them into the game systems alongside the vet players.

Anyway, the rest of your post is spot on: the new player experience is horrible. You can call this a hardcore game as a crutch for poor game play, but in reality it's just boring, a cliff of a learning curve, and unfriendly. It's no way at all to build a player base for a game that really does need a diversity of player types and proclivities to function properly.

I disagree.

I purchased this game with one reason in mind, sailing ship pvp.  The post-wipe... (I dunno what the hell to call this mess... debacle?) has already yanked the rug out from under anyone hoping to jump into pvp by saying, "sorry, your ship isn't allowed to pvp."  When I first started playing as a pirate, I started in Marsh.  The shallows let me cut my teeth and learn a lot about how this game works without having some jackass in a Surprise looking for an easy kill tagging the shit outta me.  That noob zone served it's purpose.  I've since learned a lot about ships and how the game works and, as I said in the OP, I'm able to escape from those jackasses now.  Anyone just coming to this game, they'll be clueless. And even worse, they'll be clueless and broke.  Since they can't pvp in a BC, they're not even going to get the opportunity to learn pvp without it costing them a small fortune.  My first few days playing, I lost 3 BC's in pvp fights to my own noobness.   Now?  You HAVE to lose a pickle or larger in order to get into that school of hard knocks and replacing them isn't cheap.

A lot of people compare this game to EVE Online.  So, I'll digress and do the same.  In EVE you are safe nowhere.  However, some areas are much safer than others and that's where noobs start.  There are consequences for those that would attack you in safe places so it doesn't happen often.  You get the opportunity to stumble through it's massive learning curve without getting beaten stupid.  As you venture out and learn more becomes less and less safe until you venture into areas that are completely lawless.  In this game, you get outside that capitals circle and it's lawless. ANYONE... including other pirates if you happen to be one... can tag you,

The shallows offered an area that was 'safer' than others.  And, it was a fun place to go hunt because EVERY nation had a port there.  Now, it's boring and lifeless.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Fengist

[Fengist]

3 minutes ago, Amonacc said:

I always say realism sucks, when things rolling around healthy gameplay

Ok,   so telling a noob, "you can't pvp until you grind missions and are prepared to risk lots of your money in a ship you barely know" is healthy?  Or am I totally misunderstanding you?

Edited June 18, 2017 by Fengist

[Batman]

Some good points here from OP.

[Fengist]

And another rant:

Issue 10 - Ship Knowledge progression

W. T. F.?

This is about the most... ok, relax.... less cynical.  

Again, you're forcing noobs to play the way YOU want them to.  You're telling them they can't get into a square rigger and get full ship knowledge UNTIL they go grind in a Pickle AND a Privateer first.  Why?  Is this supposed to be realistic?  Ok, well I respond with, "Yarr, I'm a Pirate."  While having a mutiny and taking my first cutter may be just fine, telling me I can't learn how to sail a Brig effectively because I haven't learned how to sail a Privateer is NONSENSE.  You have just FORCED yet another unnecessary grind into the equation.  While I fully understand NOT letting a 2 day old noob have full knowledge of a Santa, what prevents that noob from GAINING the knowledge by sailing it?  There were plenty of historical examples of sailors who worked on square riggers right from the start and went on to command them.  They likely would have had a challenge effectively sailing a fore/aft rigged at first but I have NO DOUBT they quickly learned.

What you have FORCED upon the noob is, you either learn how to FIGHT in this ship and every ship we think is smaller or you'll SUCK at it and every other ship we think is better.

I do NOT want to learn a Mercury before I learn my Snow.  I think the Mercury is pointless for my needs and a much WORSE ship than the Snow. I should NOT be forced into buying one and then forced into grinding out missions in one.

THIS should be a point based system if anything.  Learning small ships should come quick. If you have knowledge of the small ship then you should receive a bonus for learning other similar ships.  You know a cutter, you get a 10% learning bonus for the Pickle.  You don't know the Mercury, fine, but you get a -10% bonus to learning the Snow.  You jumped from the Cutter to the Surprise?  Well, ok, but you're gonna suffer a -75% learning curve. You'll get there eventually but it'll take you a lot longer.

And forcing players to learn a ship by combat?  Whut?  If I know how to access the magazine and load a 4lb gun, I'm not going to need to take a Surprise into combat just to learn how to access the magazine and load a 24lb gun.  Nextly.  Why exactly should I need to go into combat in order to learn how to make my sails less lubberly?  Isn't that accomplished by sailing?  I already spend hours doing that, why the hell should I have to be shot at to learn faster?

 

Edited June 19, 2017 by Fengist

[Fengist]

Issue 11 - Upgrades

I can't understand why this was changed from a crafting based skill to a luck based reward.  What you're saying is, if I happen to find a copper plate on a ship I capture, that I can't study that copper plate and learn how to make them?  Ok, well if not, then who the hell does make them?  NPC's?  Ok, well, since I can't learn how to make them, I'll just go buy one.  Wait, NPC's don't make them?  Ok, then what sort of magic occurs just to have them materialize in the world without intervention?  Are they made in the old country and shipped to the Caribbean?  Well, if I have the knowledge right off the bat (assuming I have the money) to setup BOTH a shipyard AND a cannon foundry, why wouldn't I know how to bang on a sheet of copper and nail it to my hull?  That's essentially how it was done.

Well, there's no copper mines?  Well, why not?  I can have my slaves mine iron, coal, silver, gold, sulfur and even saltpeter, but not copper?

Go back to the old system of crafting.  Not to the point that upgrades can be duplicated, but so that  players can make these things and sell them.  Instead of removing crafting options and thus removing a SANDBOX career path, you're taking them out of the game and funneling everyone into cannons or ships for crafting.  If you want a diverse, vibrant economy, removing items from the list is not the solution.  Adding MORE is.  Not only that but having them just drop at random is unrealistic and beats the casual player over the head for not investing more time in the game.

To digress back to a comparison of EVE Online, one of the really wonderful parts of that game is, you may know what ship they'r'e flying but you have no idea what they have installed on it.

Let me give you an example from history.  Lieutenant Robert Maynard who is credited for putting an end to Edward Teach, did so without having any cannons.  His crew was armed solely with muskets.  Now just imagine for a moment the sneaky TBrig the dev's envision fully loaded with guns.  You get into a fight with one and discover his little surprise, he's not really a trader.  Now imagine that he catches you in irons, rams your ship and when the boarding begins, even though you may outnumber him, he's loaded with marines, and muskets.  Not just a few. All marines and muskets. If this is the kind of surprise warfare the devs are trying to accomplish with giving guns to traders then the ability to have and use these kinds of upgrades should NOT be luck based.

By making upgrades non-craftable, not only have you removed a reason to learn crafting, you've turned a feature that allows players to make their ships unique into a RNG reward for PVE.

FURTHERMORE... this is supposed to be a sandbox.  You, the devs, have just taken some of the most desirable items in the game and made yourselves the ultimate controller of this resource.  YOU can, at any time, look at your database and know exactly how many copper plates are in the game and, if you so choose, change the drop rate on these.  Now IF they drop AND there is the ability to craft these items, changing the drop rate is fine and dandy.  If a shortage arises, the players can fill that by crafting.  If there's an over abundance, the prices drop and everyone gets the item.  IF these are extremely rare items that would be worth a fortune, again, I get the ability to change the drop rate on that.  If these are to be as common as they appear to be (It's a standard copper plate.  It's not Edward Teach's Copper Plate) then be prepared to be accused of manipulating the economy and favoring your hard core players whether you do or not.

If you want this to be a sandbox, well, by god, make it a sandbox.  Give the players control of how the economy works and give them USEFUL things to craft.  Right now, all the crap you can make either goes into building a ship or a gun.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Fengist

[fox2run]

The most frustrating part is that this game had everything you could dream off in february - march 2016. Since then every single patch has been a step in the wrong direction. We had a large, living community and A LOT of fighting. Some you lost and some you won. But there where a lot of PvP on the PvP server. What happened was that a group of players wasnt satisfied with the game rules. They wanted more realism like fewer lineships (not realistic btw), shorter joining timers in battles, hard road to Port Battles (where this game shines), exclusivenes for major clans a hard economy and a lot of grinding. They wanted you to be like them. But most players arent like them. They are like us. We like to use some hours on fun stuff at night and have another real life as well. Hence we like the fun part but not all the grinding part.

NA gave us that until march 2016. We had 2000 online - x-tra servers was needed and fighting all over the place. Only thing that has improved is parts of the combat model but thats about it. The rest has been a party-killer.

 

[CaptVonGunn]

On 6/18/2017 at 9:05 AM, Amonacc said:

Well, I believe me isn't only one persone here, who does fleet orders in solo way for 30-35 min each. That got even a bit fun.

 

p.s. don't use magazine access

They are now fully armed . no more 2 tail gun Trader brigs and 3 per side trader snows.  

 

You can solo fleet missions for 5th rates(the lowest one of that type) in an Indefatagable.

[Dharus]

I've just started this challenge with the addition of being a 1 region nation.  The idea is to test the viability of play and I'm only a day into it and pretty much disagree on all of the OP points.

1.  Capitals appear to have low level enemy ships that sail right into their port.  It's easy to get an OW fight around there were forts can protect you from vultures.  The noob area was very broken and vets in smaller ships could easily kill you.  The new system, you stay near forts and attack NPCs and you'll do fine.

2.  Capping ships broke crafting.  It's not hard to get a trader though... just look for another player to make one or steal one.  Less than one day into this experiment I used a pickle to get a trader lynx from an enemy player.  Capping ships works just fine but now it means you have to actively engage other people.  This is a MMO and that's what its all about.

3.  Loot doesn't suck at all now... in fact its better than ever.  If you kill a lynx and get 20 hull repairs, that's 24,000 gold.  Sure its a crap shoot but last year it was worse... much worse.  If it got any better people wouldn't need to build buildings for resources.

4.  Now crafting I'll agree that its broken to a degree.  Personally, xp for parts is needed.  Otherwise people will sit at crafting level 1 with basic labor hours.  To advance, they'll need a shipyard and make ships over and over.  No nation, especially low population nations, need 100 trader lynxes.  That leaves missions... I haven't tried that yet but will.

5.  AI Damage is fine.  I've had not problems with AI ships.  It's tougher than before but not difficult.  I've yet to sink to AI.  Just make sure you're using the right wood type in your ships.  Fir will get you killed.

6.  Traders with guns?  Who cares unless you want to grind AI traders without a challenge.  it's actually better to attack warships for xp and with #3 repairs can sell nicely.

7. I Pvped in a Pickle and got my trader lynx.  PvP doesn't happen in Lineships...

8. It is much harder with no one helping you out in a low population nation.  But its not hard at all.  Using a basic cutter, I've got enough 6lbers from loot to never need to equip a 7th rate again and that's after a day of playing this way.  The toughest will be higher end ships but as a solo player it should be difficult to get endgame National gameplay stuff.  Overall I think the direction is correct.

[Ole Pinelle]

I guess you have played in the OW of NA before, now consider you know nothing or little about NA mechanics/meta...

1. In your remote region that might work for you, but image every starter in KPR would sit outside the port and wait for the next NPC to come around. Everybody would be pulled into the fight and you basically have a hard time leaving the port area, nevertheless find a NPC not already tagged by other 10 Basic Cutters. For the Jamaica a times you will not even get to the next port without being intercepted by a gank fleet, if you are in anything else but a Basic Cutter.

2. You cannot capture NPC vessels and you will not find any other player in a TLynx, since you will not reach any area where another player sails anything smaller than Renomee or Surprise, but article was concerning the capture of NPC vessels.

4....

3. Sometimes you find 10 Hull repairs, but as often you will find Fish meat or Salt, which you can sell for 1 at your port or wait a few days for some player to buy it, for maybe 10.

5. Now guess what the new player`s experience is...

6. It is not about the challange it is about the context. Why would a Trader be similar armed as a war ship? Why should a LGV be an easier target than a Brig? Usually a trade vessel wants to earn money by transportation of goods, not guns.

7. You are new to the game and you want to try PvP in a Lynx you just bought. You will loose, you will do 2hours in Basic Cutter to earn the next Lynx, try again, loose again, repeat, maybe you get draw after some practice, still you have not earned a penny or a single XP or anything with PvP, just more grinding. 

 

The topic is about solo play and what is off, what was is worth looking into for correction.

I personally am new to the OW (just played the Sea Trails 2015 - what seems to be sold als "NA Legends" in the future) and I have a lot to learn and explore and that is what drives me personally. But I would not continue playing NA if I would look for PvP WoW in slow motion - only if I would be a masochist.

Previously the endgame content lacked  due missing long time challanges and inflatition of gold, but simply making everything more expensive is no solution for missing content.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Ole Pinelle

[Dharus]

1 hour ago, Ole Pinelle said:

I guess you have played in the OW of NA before, now consider you know nothing or little about NA mechanics/meta...

1. In your remote region that might work for you, but image every starter in KPR would sit outside the port and wait for the next NPC to come around. Everybody would be pulled into the fight and you basically have a hard time leaving the port area, nevertheless find a NPC not already tagged by other 10 Basic Cutters. For the Jamaica a times you will not even get to the next port without being intercepted by a gank fleet, if you are in anything else but a Basic Cutter.

2. You cannot capture NPC vessels and you will not find any other player in a TLynx, since you will not reach any area where another player sails anything smaller than Renomee or Surprise, but article was concerning the capture of NPC vessels.

4....

3. Sometimes you find 10 Hull repairs, but as often you will find Fish meat or Salt, which you can sell for 1 at your port or wait a few days for some player to buy it, for maybe 10.

5. Now guess what the new player`s experience is...

6. It is not about the challange it is about the context. Why would a Trader be similar armed as a war ship? Why should a LGV be an easier target than a Brig? Usually a trade vessel wants to earn money by transportation of goods, not guns.

7. You are new to the game and you want to try PvP in a Lynx you just bought. You will loose, you will do 2hours in Basic Cutter to earn the next Lynx, try again, loose again, repeat, maybe you get draw after some practice, still you have not earned a penny or a single XP or anything with PvP, just more grinding. 

 

The topic is about solo play and what is off, what was is worth looking into for correction.

I personally am new to the OW (just played the Sea Trails 2015 - what seems to be sold als "NA Legends" in the future) and I have a lot to learn and explore and that is what drives me personally. But I would not continue playing NA if I would look for PvP WoW in slow motion - only if I would be a masochist.

Previously the endgame content lacked  due missing long time challanges and inflatition of gold, but simply making everything more expensive is no solution for missing content.

1) If you're in KPR, which means you're a Brit, that means there are TONS of places that have forts nearby.  You don't have to be at the capital.  That was just in my case in a under popped nation with one region, for larger nations that doesn't matter.  If you're a Brit, go to Pedro Cay or one of those other islands.  Chances of getting killed is low (especially if you're in a basic cutter).  The idea is using the Fortress to guard you from sealcubbing.

2) My point was you don't need to capture NPCs.  It breaks the game economy.  If you want to capture traders, attack players (unless you are on the PvE server of course).  If you want a trader ship order one (if you are in a high population nation that shouldn't be hard) or attack and cap a player.

3) why would you want to sell loot for 1 gold?  Maybe craft that into food supplies or just save it because provisions are really needed for larger ships.  If you get a crappy item, that's the luck of the RNG gods.  Try again.

5)  New players should be using the basic cutter a lot.  I didn't because I'm not a noob.  Players that jump into the biggest and best thing without the thought of "I may lose this ship that I don't know how to sail" might get in trouble.  Having extra cash on hand works but a few poor decisions can get you into trouble.  A new player should use a basic cutter to at least unlock his 3 slot and by then they should have near 100k.  That's near enough for 2 ships of the next rank.  If they continue to use the fortresses as protectors, they should be fine from players.  In this game success is based on how well you shoot your guns and how well you know your sailing.  New players need to practice shooting and the basic cutter is great for that.  Its not easy to shoot but its completely free to lose.  Once they get decent with the firing on a basic, then aiming in larger ships will come easily.

6)  Trader's had guns historically.  The game isn't accurate though in this regard I grant ya and I would suggest that the crew amount should reflect how poorly fired a fully loaded trader's brig would be.  Right now I think some of those traders need lower crew so that if they really want to be an armed merchant who is effective in combat, they'll need extra crew modifications to man the cannons.

7)  Again, its about practice and ship knowledge.  A lynx is REALLY hard to kill if it's used correctly.  A new player doesn't know this and should be practicing with his ship before PvPing and have a general idea of what his strengths and weaknesses are.  The idea is that the RISK is real and OW is dangerous.  Players need to think about what they are doing before getting into those situations.  The greater problem is we've conditioned gamers to be less tolerate of losing and as such game design caters to that concept so losing doesn't mean anything.  That was last year... players were losing 1st rates and didn't care because they had 20 more waiting for them.  THAT became boring because fighting wasn't life and death.  Now, losing a ship sucks and forces a player to think about consequences of their actions.  Too many older vets are still in this mindset as are new players who come from other games were loss doesn't mean much.  Yes, it is hard but its not impossible nor does it need to be a grind.<\

Most endgame content IS NOT solo play.  It is RvR.  That is why larger ships requires more people to craft easily. Groups of players working together for a national goal is RvR.  A solo player crafting a 1st rate IS the completely wrong way to play solo.  A first rate is not about OW gameplay.  Its about group fighting specifically Port Battles.  Sandbox games always have this problem of players trying to place a square peg in a round hole.  If you are a solo player, never go past a 4th rate.  A solo player's endgame is privateering which this game delivers.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Dharus

[Hodo]

@Fengist

You have a lot of assumptions in your post, while you do have some valid points in there also. 

BUT you are missing some hard truths.

-The Bahamas noob zone was nothing more than a hunting ground for vets.  I know because even I used it to hunt noobs and vets sailing trade ships running goods from one port to another.  It was not what it was intended to be.

-The Cutter issue was resolved shortly after people abused it.  

As for your Snow vs a Brig, well that comes down to failure as a captain to properly engage his enemy.  The Snow is made of paper and good intentions.   It has the same number of guns on its gun deck as a brig, not a navy brig but a brig.  I hate the Snow, but have been recently using it.. it has its good points, not many but it does have them.

No capture of AI ships, well with the changes in the crafting and ship durability it would break the economy on horrible levels having AI ships capturable on the PVP servers.

The marks for refits is about right for most things,  seeing as a elite refit is just that ELITE, and once you have it you can make them non-stop.  It takes no time to grind out 100PVE marks, just play the game and attack things it will stack up in no time.  Or you could buy them off of other players, there are some who are sitting on hundreds because all they do is grind missions or hostility in other regions.  Which means LOTS of PVE marks.  

 

 

[HoneyBaddger]

On 6/18/2017 at 1:51 PM, Fengist said:

The addition of PVP marks makes this a problem.  Before, when refits and modules were crafted, this was not a problem.

And tell me, now 'realistic' is this? You see a ship on the open ocean but you're not 'allowed' to attack them?  You try to get close and fire your guns and they simply refuse to shoot???  I thot this was the age of sail... that would take some serious technology.

Sounds like someone is a little salty because they are not allowed to PvP in their BC. It was an exploit that was taken away. Don't try to make the case...we know you are an exploiter.  The BC is used temporarily and should be discarded as soon as possible for the next best thing. Don't be a noob

[surfimp]

I am sympathetic to a degree, this game does have a steep learning curve, but many times things that are challenging to learn wind up being the most rewarding in the long term.

I have certainly poured more hours into Naval Action than anything else in my Steam library, by double or more from the nearest contender. And with only around ~500hrs (despite playing since Sea Trials) I am - by NA definitions - a casual.

Also, the vast majority of the time, and currently, I play as a solo, non-affiilated with any clan and rarely participating in RVR. My pleasure in Naval Action comes from hunting player traders while sailing a 7th rate, something I enjoy as an end in itself. I sail in enemy waters out of freeports, I try to minimize PVE grinding as much as possible and live out of my prizes. I sail into enemy capitals in trade ships I captured from that enemy so as to resupply and continue my raiding. I love the challenge of planning my patrol to take advantage of wind and trade routes while minimizing the likelihood of getting caught by the enemy's interceptors. Capping player traders is plenty challenging - make even a small mistake with your tag and they'll sail off into the distance where your fore-and-aft rigged ship will have a hard time catching them. Now that they are armed, they can put up a good fight, too, and are much more challenging to capture than AI traders.

Overall, I find it a very fun, challenging and rewarding experience. It doesn't take much gold at all to outfit a 7th rate for raiding enemy commerce like this, it's something that any new player can do (in a game mechanics sense) after getting up to being able to the second or third rank and having enough crew to take a prize (and remembering to unlock the requisite fleet perk slot).

So... I dunno. I am a solo player and I am very happy.

[Fengist]

2 hours ago, airborneguy said:

Sounds like someone is a little salty because they are not allowed to PvP in their BC. It was an exploit that was taken away. Don't try to make the case...we know you are an exploiter.  The BC is used temporarily and should be discarded as soon as possible for the next best thing. Don't be a noob

Before the wipe the BC was an exploit?  LOL.  Are is illiterate as you are assumptive?  I'm talking B.E.F.O.R.E the wipe.  The BC should not be some noob tool to be discarded. The ONLY thing that gives it an advantage right now is the free repairs.  And seriously, if you can only use them as often as any other ship then how much of a difference does that really make?

You want hard core, fine. Make noobs pay for the BC repairs.  That's the ONLY difference that makes that ship unrealistic.  But, then again, since the shallows as a noob area are gone and they're having to face noob hunting jackasses like you, maybe there is a point.

[Fengist]

5 hours ago, Dharus said:

2) My point was you don't need to capture NPCs.  It breaks the game economy.  If you want to capture traders, attack players (unless you are on the PvE server of course).  If you want a trader ship order one (if you are in a high population nation that shouldn't be hard) or attack and cap a player.

3) why would you want to sell loot for 1 gold?  Maybe craft that into food supplies or just save it because provisions are really needed for larger ships.  If you get a crappy item, that's the luck of the RNG gods.  Try again.

5)  New players should be using the basic cutter a lot.  I didn't because I'm not a noob.  Players that jump into the biggest and best thing without the thought of "I may lose this ship that I don't know how to sail" might get in trouble.  Having extra cash on hand works but a few poor decisions can get you into trouble.  A new player should use a basic cutter to at least unlock his 3 slot and by then they should have near 100k.  That's near enough for 2 ships of the next rank.  If they continue to use the fortresses as protectors, they should be fine from players.  In this game success is based on how well you shoot your guns and how well you know your sailing.  New players need to practice shooting and the basic cutter is great for that.  Its not easy to shoot but its completely free to lose.  Once they get decent with the firing on a basic, then aiming in larger ships will come easily.

6)  Trader's had guns historically.  The game isn't accurate though in this regard I grant ya and I would suggest that the crew amount should reflect how poorly fired a fully loaded trader's brig would be.  Right now I think some of those traders need lower crew so that if they really want to be an armed merchant who is effective in combat, they'll need extra crew modifications to man the cannons.

7)  Again, its about practice and ship knowledge.  A lynx is REALLY hard to kill if it's used correctly.  A new player doesn't know this and should be practicing with his ship before PvPing and have a general idea of what his strengths and weaknesses are.  The idea is that the RISK is real and OW is dangerous.  Players need to think about what they are doing before getting into those situations.  The greater problem is we've conditioned gamers to be less tolerate of losing and as such game design caters to that concept so losing doesn't mean anything.  That was last year... players were losing 1st rates and didn't care because they had 20 more waiting for them.  THAT became boring because fighting wasn't life and death.  Now, losing a ship sucks and forces a player to think about consequences of their actions.  Too many older vets are still in this mindset as are new players who come from other games were loss doesn't mean much.  Yes, it is hard but its not impossible nor does it need to be a grind.<\

Most endgame content IS NOT solo play.  It is RvR.  That is why larger ships requires more people to craft easily. Groups of players working together for a national goal is RvR.  A solo player crafting a 1st rate IS the completely wrong way to play solo.  A first rate is not about OW gameplay.  Its about group fighting specifically Port Battles.  Sandbox games always have this problem of players trying to place a square peg in a round hole.  If you are a solo player, never go past a 4th rate.  A solo player's endgame is privateering which this game delivers.

2) Unrealistic and it does NOT break the economy.  It's not like you got gobs of loot from breaking one up before the wipe.

3) Food supplies = 1 gold.  Why the hell would I craft a 1 gold item into a 1 gold item? 

5) Fortress as a protector.  Ok, you find me a mission that occurs right outside a port and I'll be glad to drag them to a port.  You find a fortress that will assist me when attacking a FULLY ARMED TRADER and yep, I'll use it.

6) Historically... I'm not even gonna touch this.

7) Kinda hard to practice with a Lynx when you're in a mission and get jumped by a Surprise.

YOUR end game may be RVR.  My end game may be PVP. Another's end game may be a merchant.  You assume because YOU do things a certain way that everyone should.  And that's the SAME thing the devs are forcing down the necks of their players.  Play THIS way or leave. Placing a square peg in a round hole?  Why are all the holes round in the first place?  

Both of your posts cop this same attitude.  Play like ME.

 

Edited June 20, 2017 by Fengist

[Fengist]

5 hours ago, Hodo said:

@Fengist

-The Bahamas noob zone was nothing more than a hunting ground for vets.  I know because even I used it to hunt noobs and vets sailing trade ships running goods from one port to another.  It was not what it was intended to be.

As for your Snow vs a Brig, well that comes down to failure as a captain to properly engage his enemy.  The Snow is made of paper and good intentions.   It has the same number of guns on its gun deck as a brig, not a navy brig but a brig.  I hate the Snow, but have been recently using it.. it has its good points, not many but it does have them.

No capture of AI ships, well with the changes in the crafting and ship durability it would break the economy on horrible levels having AI ships capturable on the PVP servers.

The marks for refits is about right for most things,  seeing as a elite refit is just that ELITE, and once you have it you can make them non-stop.  It takes no time to grind out 100PVE marks, just play the game and attack things it will stack up in no time.  Or you could buy them off of other players, there are some who are sitting on hundreds because all they do is grind missions or hostility in other regions.  Which means LOTS of PVE marks.  

 

 

- Yes it was.  But those vets weren't tagging my Snow with a Renom and a Surprise.  And yea, I had a few of those fleet admirals come after me in the shallows before the wipe and you know what, I embarrassed a number of them.  Snow vs a Rattle, I can handle.  Snow vs a Surprise, I'm running.

- You assume it's bad because it doesn't brawl well.  You wanna hunt Tbrigs and Tsnows, it's the best option because of the chasers and the speed.  And I know the Snow better than any other ship so don't assume because I get blasted that I don't know what I'm doing.

- And it's unrealistic on horrible levels.

- Buy PVE marks?  You assume a noob has that kind of money.  Sorry, they spent it all on ships they lost in missions trying to get PVE marks.

 

[Fengist]

2 hours ago, Sansón Carrasco said:

Overall, I find it a very fun, challenging and rewarding experience. It doesn't take much gold at all to outfit a 7th rate for raiding enemy commerce like this, it's something that any new player can do (in a game mechanics sense) after getting up to being able to the second or third rank and having enough crew to take a prize (and remembering to unlock the requisite fleet perk slot).

So... I dunno. I am a solo player and I am very happy.

I find it a boring grind.  And raiding enemy commerce?  If you're talking about players then take your 7th rate up against some guy escorting his trader with a Surprise.  The shallows are gone. Find a non escorted trader?  Ok, so what can you take on with your Pickle?  A TBrig?  You won't catch it and if you do, you're outgunned.  Same with the TSnow.

Ya, how many ships are those noobs going to have to grind through in order to get full ship knowledge of a surprise?

[surfimp]

I capped two player TBrigs last night, and three a couple nights ago. With my Privateer. I don't go after anything escorted by Surprises as a general rule, though I'd consider it if I thought I could cap fast enough.

It's no problem so long as you have a good tag. The skills you learn from capping AI traders apply to player traders, as well.

[Hodo]

7 minutes ago, Fengist said:

I find it a boring grind.  And raiding enemy commerce?  If you're talking about players then take your 7th rate up against some guy escorting his trader with a Surprise.  The shallows are gone. Find a non escorted trader?  Ok, so what can you take on with your Pickle?  A TBrig?  You won't catch it and if you do, you're outgunned.  Same with the TSnow.

Ya, how many ships are those noobs going to have to grind through in order to get full ship knowledge of a surprise?

You sir horribly underestimate the speed of the Pickle down wind or up wind for that matter.  I think my Sabicu +Teak  Pickle I built does 13kn down wind and 12.7kn close hauled.  Not a lot will outrun or out turn that.   With 6lb longs on that and you can sit back at 500-600m and take out the sails with ease.  Then approach and rake once or twice take the crew down by half and board at your leisure.

I sail in a Lynx and can take down LGVs if I am so inclined.  Granted it will take an hour to take out a player LGV but I can do it.  The other hunting vessel of choice for me is the Privateer, again it is an amazing little ship, fast, and well armed.   

27 minutes ago, Fengist said:

- Yes it was.  But those vets weren't tagging my Snow with a Renom and a Surprise.  And yea, I had a few of those fleet admirals come after me in the shallows before the wipe and you know what, I embarrassed a number of them.  Snow vs a Rattle, I can handle.  Snow vs a Surprise, I'm running.

- You assume it's bad because it doesn't brawl well.  You wanna hunt Tbrigs and Tsnows, it's the best option because of the chasers and the speed.  And I know the Snow better than any other ship so don't assume because I get blasted that I don't know what I'm doing.

- And it's unrealistic on horrible levels.

- Buy PVE marks?  You assume a noob has that kind of money.  Sorry, they spent it all on ships they lost in missions trying to get PVE marks.

 

Not assuming you're bad because of defeat, I am saying you failed as a captain in that encounter.  It isnt an insult it is a fact.   When I screw up and let a target get away, I failed.  

But that is because I work in a GO or NO-GO system.   You are either a pass (GO) or a fail (NO-GO).  I am not saying the Snow is a horrible ship, it just isnt a great ship for my style.   And I do just fine without chasers.  All about the perks you choose.  

My current perk setup is a follows.

Fleet1 - lets me keep my prizes.

Prepaired- start with guns loaded, this is ALWAYS worth it.

Area Control- No bow chasers so this is a must.

Carpenter- For those few times I get hit hard and want to stay ahead of my opponent.

Trimming Expert- Minimizing the already massive heel of the Fore-and-Aft rigged ships. 

 

Although I may dump trimming expert in favor of double charge... but that is just a personal setup.  

[surfimp]

Captain Perks I use for player trader hunting:

- Fleet Control 1 (can't capture prizes without at least this)
- Prepared (for that early chain shot)
- Area Control (because there's nothing more heartbreaking than missing a tag - very possible with grape - and having the quarry blink out when you're right next to them)
- Rigging Specialist (helps for both offense & defense)
- Double Shot (but am probably going to change to Double Charge or else Fleet 2)

My Privateer is fir/fir with copper plating and 4lb longs. It's still pretty slow (<10kts) when dead downwind, but it's an absolute rocketship upwind (>14kts).
4lb longs are more than sufficient for hunting traders and weigh less than 6lb mediums while having nearly the same performance.
Less weight => more speed => better hunter.

I use the following perks on it:
- Studding Sails (not sure if this actually helps downwind performance on a fore-and-aft ship, but I hope so - need to test)
- Melee Training
- Boarding Parties
- Survival Books
- Pumps