New player experience: is this intended?

[Borentos]

This week i started to play Naval Action, so far i really liked it, the combat is interesting and the ships are beautiful. I sunk my starter ship several times, but in the end i got the hang of it and made it to rank 2nd Lieutenant with slightly less than 100K gold.

I bought my first ship ( a snow) and fitted it with long cannons and off to my first 2nd lt. mission. I managed to sink my snow on her maiden voyage. Everything in that fight went wrong, the first AI salvo set me on fire, i didnot hit anything with my long cannons ( i did well in my cutter with the mediums) and at some point i was sailing backwards. (later i learned on youtube that i could manually control the sails).

I am now left with ~ 2500 gold, i need to do about 10 ensign missions in the cutter again to earn enough money for a new snow. I guess 1 mission is about 20/30 min., this will take me somewhere between 4 and 5 hours to get a snow again (no way i am going to do that).

I played EVE online long enough to know the famous slogan: never fly a ship that you cant afford to lose.  In the case of Naval Action i didnot had any other option, the snow was my first ship after the starter ship which cost a (relative)  fortune for a new player.

I checked the forums and learned that it wasnt always this way, apparently in the past your ship had 5 "lives" and were alot cheaper. I just cant understand the reason why they changed it, there is absolutely no room for any mistake as a new player.

 

[maturin]

Pretty harsh, but there you have it.

In the future, it is almost always possible to run away from the AI if things go south.

Basic Cutter to Snow is a big jump. Pickle or Privateer would have been a cheaper stepping stone, and only would have cost you 50k or so.

I recommend never eating into your rainy day fund.

[Vernon Merrill]

Pickle is a much better choice for a second ship...  and yes, sometimes running away is a much better idea than fighting to the death.

 

Welcome to Naval Action, by the way!

 

[Thomas Sailaway]

34 minutes ago, Borentos said:

This week i started to play Naval Action, so far i really liked it, the combat is interesting and the ships are beautiful. I sunk my starter ship several times, but in the end i got the hang of it and made it to rank 2nd Lieutenant with slightly less than 100K gold.

I bought my first ship ( a snow) and fitted it with long cannons and off to my first 2nd lt. mission. I managed to sink my snow on her maiden voyage. Everything in that fight went wrong, the first AI salvo set me on fire, i didnot hit anything with my long cannons ( i did well in my cutter with the mediums) and at some point i was sailing backwards. (later i learned on youtube that i could manually control the sails).

I am now left with ~ 2500 gold, i need to do about 10 ensign missions in the cutter again to earn enough money for a new snow. I guess 1 mission is about 20/30 min., this will take me somewhere between 4 and 5 hours to get a snow again (no way i am going to do that).

I played EVE online long enough to know the famous slogan: never fly a ship that you cant afford to lose.  In the case of Naval Action i didnot had any other option, the snow was my first ship after the starter ship which cost a (relative)  fortune for a new player.

I checked the forums and learned that it wasnt always this way, apparently in the past your ship had 5 "lives" and were alot cheaper. I just cant understand the reason why they changed it, there is absolutely no room for any mistake as a new player.

 

This. How many new players did Naval Action loose because of things like these?

[Guruthos]

First of all i hope you didn't lose motivation to play naval action. there are still alot nice ships ahead and if you got further usually it is really not worlds end to lose a ship.

i would recomend you to search for a clan. the most are really helpfull and even some of the experienced players aswell struggle if because we lose ships aswell and need to grind again they still will find time to explain you the basics here.

As Vernon Merrill already said, use a pickle after the cutter. it's already stronger but not so much different. equip medium canons, in my point of view in pve they are better then longs (faster reaload time)

don't give up it might be hardcore but this game will how it's beautiful sides aswell

[maturin]

Quote

This. How many new players did Naval Action loose because of things like these?

Like none lol

Removal of durabilities is brand-new and correlates with a big increase in the playerbase.

Really, GameLabs' business model should center on charging players for ridiculous statements of "everyone left the game because X." They would be bigger than Apple by now.

[Thomas Sailaway]

4 minutes ago, maturin said:

Like none lol

Removal of durabilities is brand-new and correlates with a big increase in the playerbase.

Really, GameLabs' business model should center on charging players for ridiculous statements of "everyone left the game because X." They would be bigger than Apple by now.

You are so wrong! I have friends wich tried this game who quit because of reasons like OP mentioned.

The removal of duras might be the cause of people leaving because of what OP wrote, even old and new players.

And I never said anything about "everyone left the game because of X", that's all on you. Think twice before posting again please.

[Borentos]

9 minutes ago, Guruthos said:

First of all i hope you didn't lose motivation to play naval action. there are still alot nice ships ahead and if you got further usually it is really not worlds end to lose a ship.

i would recomend you to search for a clan. the most are really helpfull and even some of the experienced players aswell struggle if because we lose ships aswell and need to grind again they still will find time to explain you the basics here.

As Vernon Merrill already said, use a pickle after the cutter. it's already stronger but not so much different. equip medium canons, in my point of view in pve they are better then longs (faster reaload time)

don't give up it might be hardcore but this game will how it's beautiful sides aswell

 

Thx for the tips, i will try the pickle, the reason i bought the snow because it was a 6th rate ship, which seemed a logical step up from a 7th rate.

[maturin]

Just now, Borch said:

Yeah, that's why Admin said long time ago that most people never get further than brig. It's not only about new durabilities but about whole new players experience.

Most people in any game never get farther than "the brig."

You can go on Steam and look at the stats for wildly popular and renowned games like Half-Life 2. Most players never get more than two missions in before losing interest.

[Remus]

13 minutes ago, Thomas Sailaway said:

This. How many new players did Naval Action loose because of things like these?

I'm going to disagrtee with @maturin - the high numbers are because something new has finally happened in NA. My guess is it is not high because all of the changes are good.

I am convinced there is a problem, not with 1 dura, not with buying individual cannons, not with the relative costs of things, not because of there are no tows and teleports, but because the way to make money is so at odds with the ship combat / PvP gameplay that new players sign up for. Making money through trading isn't intuitive; it overly rewards the wealthy, and because server economies have to be balanced against the total amount of gold entering circulation, prices are high for those who can't access the gold seam.

To suggest the game is perfect and not listening to the OP and others like him is hiding your head in the sand.

[Twig]

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/20856-new-player-experience-is-this-intended/

40 minutes ago, maturin said:

Like none lol

Removal of durabilities is brand-new and correlates with a big increase in the playerbase.

Really, GameLabs' business model should center on charging players for ridiculous statements of "everyone left the game because X." They would be bigger than Apple by now.

Well there went a lot wrong - so those statements were not ridiculous - just think about it: we were down to only a few hundred players before the wipe...

@Borentos this game were never easy, even when you had a few durability on your ship. The first ship I've got after the cutter had been a 1 dura snow too(baught it sheep from another player - still I had also needed to do 10 fights or so cause you did not got money that fast as you get now - this is a long time ago btw.) and I also lost that ship directly in the next fight. That was in the old system still I know those struggles. I've than searched for a good clan and guess what I loved it and I am still part of the clan 1 year or longer later, even when almost none were playing I never left.

How to play the game, is totaly your decision. But this wonderful game just gets even more enjoyable when enjoying it with other players together. (Totaly in my opinion though).

Don't let yourself get dragged down from one loose. Look for other players or play it alone, but than you have to grind. (Well to be fair everyone has to grind right now.)
This game is not delivered with a manual. You need to learn anything mostly by learning by doing. Now you are also able to enjoy guides which are available in the forum.

I sincerly hope, that you will give this game another change and keep on playing. For every struggle you see, you will also get another joyful moments. Keep playing on!

BTW: the system were changed cause after some point the game was way to easy. You are right, now for beginners it is ever harder - but cause of that you are also able to enjoy it longer without falling into despair cause you got everything and dont have any other goal you can achieve.

See ya on the seas!

Edited June 9, 2017 by Twig

[surfimp]

Fundamentally, OP's experience points up the truth that there's a whole lot of PVE grinding in a game that, on the surface, seems like it's mostly about PVP battling.

Of the three real life friends who got into Naval Action with me, none are still playing, and all for the same reason as the OP - there's simply way too much PVE grinding in this game, there is very little explanation of what is possible or required due to the weak UI and lack of any sort of in-game direction, there is huge risk of loss for making the decision to use "better" ships, which can see you sent right back to the Basic Cutter and essentially being forced to start from scratch.

Sure, no game is "for everyone" but the above is not for many at all. Already, in my timezones, the 1,000+ players post-wipe are gone, we're back to 200+/- and falling day by day. I am sure there are plenty of folks like the OP who feel like they got burned and will not be back - they will just leave a negative review and be gone. OP has experience with Eve, too, so it sounds like he's not a babe in the woods when it comes to an MMO style game.

It's too bad IMHO but I don't see anything changing. Ever since the introduction of the open world, it's been more or less the same, though right now the grind is on the more extreme end of the spectrum to be sure.

[Cmdr Thrudd]

I agree that the game is much harder at the start than in later game. Difficulty should start easy then ramp up to allow new players to learn this game systems and find their feet before the challenge gradually kicks in. I'm sure thats what the devs would prefer too as it'll improve player retention and its basic game design, it's just not in that state now. 7th rates should be ludicrously easy to replace even for a clueless new player, 6ths easy for anyone to move into/replace after a couple of hours playing and then the work/cost involved goes up as the rates get higher. Folks need to be able to loose their early ships trying things out and not feel devastated by it.

[Mrdoomed]

I think everyone is missing the HUGE picture. Just wait till 6 months go by and all the vets have unlimited access tobas to as many ships as they want , those ships are top of the line and built to kill. About this time is when the map will be spread between 3 maybe 4 factions and they have ports all over so there are no safe spaces for new players . 

Thata about the time when everyone just starts camping the capitals  for many reasons mentioned in other posts and kill every newb all day or every time a new players runs the gauntlets and sets up a port away from capital thinking hes safe then the first time he leaves a battle he finds 25 ships waiting to sink him.

THATS when NA starts having trouble. 

[Vernon Merrill]

Three things:

1)  I dont know about everyone else, but why wouldnt you prefer a game that was challenging?  Lets be honest...  YES, its a real bitch to get going in this game.  YES, making money and getting a decent foothold  is harder than it was.  But really, is't that better than "mastering" a game in the first week?  I would venture a guess to say that just as many people have left due to their feeling that there is no longer any "progression" after ranking to Rear Admiral as there are who get frustrated in the first week.  Especially for those of us who dont really get into the whole RvR thing. If PvP gets hard to find, then this game can get tedious really quickly.

2) Did people NOT realize that it was going to take at least a few weeks for the economy to get up and running?  I would venture a guess to say that MOST clans are still outfitting their players with guns and ships at this point.  Much of the materials that people complain about not being able to get just havent hit the market yet.  

3) Get out into the OW...even new players.  I capped a Trader Brig between KPR and Navasse last night.  I was in a Renommee.  But I could have been in a pickle or Mercury and gotten him just as easily.   He was carrying 2100 iron fittings.  Instant 1M gold.  I told him to meet me in Navasse and I gave him his ship and 150 of the fittings back so that he could cover at least a bit of his losses.  

If you 
"feel" like you "NEED" to grind, you're doing it wrong.  You CAN succeed in small ships while still learning.  You just cant be afraid to be a bit bold and also fail occasionally.  Fortune favors the brave.

[Thomas Sailaway]

5 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Three things:

1)  I dont know about everyone else, but why wouldnt you prefer a game that was challenging?  Lets be honest...  YES, its a real bitch to get going in this game.  YES, making money and getting a decent foothold  is harder than it was.  But really, is't that better than "mastering" a game in the first week?  I would venture a guess to say that just as many people have left due to their feeling that there is no longer any "progression" after ranking to Rear Admiral as there are who get frustrated in the first week.  Especially for those of us who dont really get into the whole RvR thing. If PvP gets hard to find, then this game can get tedious really quickly.

2) Did people NOT realize that it was going to take at least a few weeks for the economy to get up and running?  I would venture a guess to say that MOST clans are still outfitting their players with guns and ships at this point.  Much of the materials that people complain about not being able to get just havent hit the market yet.  

3) Get out into the OW...even new players.  I capped a Trader Brig between KPR and Navasse last night.  I was in a Renommee.  But I could have been in a pickle or Mercury and gotten him just as easily.   He was carrying 2100 iron fittings.  Instant 1M gold.  I told him to meet me in Navasse and I gave him his ship and 150 of the fittings back so that he could cover at least a bit of his losses.  

If you 
"feel" like you "NEED" to grind, you're doing it wrong.  You CAN succeed in small ships while still learning.  You just cant be afraid to be a bit bold and also fail occasionally.  Fortune favors the brave.

 

First of all I agree with you, I like the game now that it is challenging. But, I think you miss the point of this post. The real issue here isn't it being too challenging, the issue is like this when new players who know nothing about the game and ends up quitting almost before they get started due to the lack of how to play, tutorials, all the grinding and slow progress in the beginning of the game. I would say make it easier for new players in someway to get going so they at least want to stay for a while to see the game as it is. I can only imagine how hard it must be for some of the new players getting in to all of this with the costs of already getting out of the basic cutter and the gold it cost when you sink in a ship wich is not free. Oh dear.

[ajffighter86]

The economic side of the game in my opinion has been the most neglected aspect of the game's development, and now that we've gone to 1 durability ships (a change I approve of, don't get me wrong), the problems associated with neglecting the economic aspect of the game this whole time are starting to show. The need to replace ships is greater than ever, but hard to do with the shoddy state of the economy gameplay. If the economic side of the game were as complex as say, the combat damage model as it stands in the game, it might actually be engaging and interesting enough to be a game in itself.

Theoretically, ships in the 7th and 6th rate class should be relatively easy to replace. But NPC shops are still competing with crafters for crafting materials. These new players might actually be able to find the materials they need to build and replace their own ships (hard to get started though, with the re-introduction of shipyards), the only problem is that the next town up is buying materials for stupidly high amounts, so people will do things like load up 1700 iron fittings (just an example, sorry if I'm ruining anyone's get-rich-quick scheme) on a brig and dump them in the next town up until the sell price crashes to 1 gold. Issues like that basically destroy crafting potential.

That, and unless someone pulls you aside and walks you through how to craft and how to set up contracts, as a new player you're not likely to find ways to make money other than grinding PVE fleets.

The new guys really do have it hard. Even the old guys coming back are confused about these new mechanics and whether you are an old dog or a new dog, you pretty much have to have someone explain the new tricks or you do like I do, capture ships and not know that you have to actually hit 'sink ship' and 'confirm' in order to get PVP-mark credit for the kill before leaving battle (thanks again Remus, lol).

In the USA we're trying to keep inflation under control as much as possible by keeping prices low, but that has always been an issue with any of these MMO games that let you "print money" by quests (or in naval action's case, missions). Eventually to the people who have been playing, 50,000 gold is 'chump change' but when a new player logs in for the first time on that faction and sees things like lynxes and privateers selling for over 100,000 gold, they're gonna either complain that missions aren't paying enough (which makes the problem EVEN WORSE if the developers increase payouts), or they're just going to assume it's hopeless to ever have enough money to buy a ship.

I've posted videos like this before on these forums, but the developers (and really anyone who is interested in the phenomenon of inflation in online games), REALLY REALLY need to watch these videos:

Gamelabs might consider hiring some outside expert help on someone who understands economics if they are serious about having an open world economy.

We've already seen 'reserve currencies' being used in the game because for a while after open world release, the 'crafting notes' that used to be in the game were actually used as currency because players recognized their value over the gold we get for running fleet missions.

Edited June 9, 2017 by ajffighter86
had the wrong video

[Brogsitter]

9 hours ago, Borentos said:

This week i started to play Naval Action, so far i really liked it, the combat is interesting and the ships are beautiful. I sunk my starter ship several times, but in the end i got the hang of it and made it to rank 2nd Lieutenant with slightly less than 100K gold.

I bought my first ship ( a snow) and fitted it with long cannons and off to my first 2nd lt. mission. I managed to sink my snow on her maiden voyage. Everything in that fight went wrong, the first AI salvo set me on fire, i didnot hit anything with my long cannons ( i did well in my cutter with the mediums) and at some point i was sailing backwards. (later i learned on youtube that i could manually control the sails).

I am now left with ~ 2500 gold, i need to do about 10 ensign missions in the cutter again to earn enough money for a new snow. I guess 1 mission is about 20/30 min., this will take me somewhere between 4 and 5 hours to get a snow again (no way i am going to do that).

I played EVE online long enough to know the famous slogan: never fly a ship that you cant afford to lose.  In the case of Naval Action i didnot had any other option, the snow was my first ship after the starter ship which cost a (relative)  fortune for a new player.

I checked the forums and learned that it wasnt always this way, apparently in the past your ship had 5 "lives" and were alot cheaper. I just cant understand the reason why they changed it, there is absolutely no room for any mistake as a new player.

 

You should have read some steam reviews, where the players shared their experience with the latest patch: unfortunetaly it has became a massive grind game. :sad:

[Brogsitter]

33 minutes ago, ajffighter86 said:

[...]Gamelabs might consider hiring some outside expert help on someone who understands economics if they are serious about having an open world economy.

We've already seen 'reserve currencies' being used in the game because for a while after open world release, the 'crafting notes' that used to be in the game were actually used as currency because players recognized their value over the gold we get for running fleet missions.

There were multiple (detailed) purposals for a working economy handed to the developers. Sadly they havent made any use of them.

[ajffighter86]

9 minutes ago, Brogsitter said:

There were multiple (detailed) purposals for a working economy handed to the developers. Sadly they havent made any use of them.

Honestly they should not have gone to 1 durability ships without first addressing the flaws in the economic gameplay, and I say that as someone who has been supportive of the 1 durability crowd. We now have ships that are easy to lose, and difficult to replace even at the lower levels.

One thing that needs to come back IMMEDIATELY is the crafting xp for creating items and not just building ships. Shipbuilding currently is too difficult for new players to get into, and even if they could afford a shipyard, as I stated earlier, it is hard to find the materials because all the rear admirals are loading their trader brigs up with materials and selling them to NPC stores to become rich.

Trade goods should really be the only thing the NPC will buy. Keep those labor hours geared towards player-consumption, and not building stuff for NPC's that gets thrown into a digital trashcan.

Edited June 9, 2017 by ajffighter86

[admin]

1 hour ago, ajffighter86 said:

 

Theoretically, ships in the 7th and 6th rate class should be relatively easy to replace. But NPC shops are still competing with crafters for crafting materials. These new players might actually be able to find the materials they need to build and replace their own ships (hard to get started though, with the re-introduction of shipyards), the only problem is that the next town up is buying materials for stupidly high amounts, so people will do things like load up 1700 iron fittings (just an example, sorry if I'm ruining anyone's get-rich-quick scheme) on a brig and dump them in the next town up until the sell price crashes to 1 gold. Issues like that basically destroy crafting potential.

 

you contradict yourself here

• You say 7th and 6th rates are hard to replace
• But NPC shops buy crafting materials at ridiculous prices
• Generating ridiculous profits i suppose right as you said in the next town.

If people can make those ridiculous money in the next town (easy money) - why can't they use that money to replace 7th and 6ht rates? 
 

[ironhammer500]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

you contradict yourself here

• You say 7th and 6th rates are hard to replace
• But NPC shops buy crafting materials at ridiculous prices
• Generating ridiculous profits i suppose right as you said in the next town.

If people can make those ridiculous money in the next town (easy money) - why can't they use that money to replace 7th and 6ht rates? 
 

Because people dont make profits from production buildings at all, you make a huge loss if you sell to the npc, but its for quick cash if looted from NPC traders, you still do not make tons of money, Trade good do this and being super rare those who are on quick after maint empty the ports out and get millions.

Npcs seem to buy at 50% the price they sell at which makes buying and selling bad.

[admin]

8 minutes ago, ironhammer500 said:

Because people dont make profits from production buildings at all, you make a huge loss if you sell to the npc, but its for quick cash if looted from NPC traders, you still do not make tons of money, Trade good do this and being super rare those who are on quick after maint empty the ports out and get millions.

Npcs seem to buy at 50% the price they sell at which makes buying and selling bad.

you are gravely mistaken. Please do not listen to those who tell you the BS about NPC buying at bad prices. 

NPC buy at huge markups if they consume the resource. Smart players already use it to their advantage. 

[ironhammer500]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

you are gravely mistaken. Please do not listen to those who tell you the BS about NPC buying at bad prices. 

NPC buy at huge markups if they consume the resource. Smart players already use it to their advantage. 

Ok your confusing production goods like Iron ore, Oak logs, with stuff that is Non production like Jewels and Special meats stuff like that, which are rare goods, no one trades the production goods from port to port due to the poor payouts the npcs give and the insane prices that charge players to buy them.

Im talking about player produced trade goods not the ones that are super rare, no people camp those before Maintenance. then soon as server is back they buy the entire stock and trade it so no one has those rare goods to trade for missions, while they make millions.

Saying the Npcs should pay more for Production goods like iron ore, coal, oak all those needed to make a ship, so players are encouraged to use buildings in order to sell to ports, 

And i think a range from production should mark up the price of the items to make players sail long distance in order to sell.

[Captain Lust]

Your first mistake was buying a Snow. The hull and sails are paper. Also they increased ship cost of NPC ships to encourage ship crafting and buying ships from crafters, but this was a bad move in my opinion since new players don't know better and will buy the NPC ships anyways and also there arent crafted ships available everywhere.... I think the NPC ships having crew space instead of a proper planking makes them unattractive enough to prefer crafted ones.

But im very glad they removed the 5 super mario lives for ships. A ship that is destroyed / sunk is gone, that's how it is. Without the stupid lives/duras captured ships are now actually worth something, too.