What is: Naval Action? - A video guide.

[Flip]

 

Also, to address your very... creative interpretation of the Pay-to-Win phenomenon: If, in your mind, a 12-gun Dutch Yacht with a Da Vinci Fresco on her stern-quarters amounts to "Pay-to-Win" in a game where a 36-gun Frigate with over six times the gun poundage is set to be the average - I will heartily suggest you go look up Pay-to-Win and ponder it's meaning in real depth.

 

Obviously the yacht is not, I meant if they sell bigger ships to keep the lights on at some point.

[Flip]

 

Wait, what?. The ship model was unrealistic as heck, the damage model was laughable, the mechanics had nothing to do with the ones in real life. There was no complication in it, just selecting a "meta" skillset appropiate for the ship you were running and the way you wanted to fight, and a sequence in which those skills had to be applied for maximum effect. Sure, maybe a skill or two would be situational and you should apply it in the proper moment, but other than that, where's the "hard" part on that?. How's that not "dumbed down"?. That was a fighting system so complicated that I learned in one afternoon of training/teaching with Roberta Diaz in 1v1 skirmish mode, and so challenging that I got my 8 year old nephews playing effectively in no time (and no, I'm not making it up). That's how complicated it was.

 

And don't get me started about the avcom part. Or the rageboarding builds. Verry complicated to pull and win that way, comrade. Verry.

 

Seriously ,if for you POTBS fighting was not "dumbed down" I'd hate to think what it is.

 

 

See you come at it from a different perspective, from a sim standpoint, yes it was dumbed down. I am talking from a game standpoint. Just because the ships sail in a dumbed down way doesn't make the game itself dumbed down. The issue is I doubt you learned it to full potential, people could range from terrible to good. At its core it was actually as complicated as naval action is, think of it this way, in NA you sail and shoot. In Potbs you sailed, and managed skills and had to deal with faster paced action. Each had their own complexities but they are both complex.

 

My little sister came over and played NA at age 9 being a huge disney pirate movie fan, doesn't that make it uncomplex too? She aimed better than the other 3 players in the PvE match she was in, she figured it out fast, firing test shots and adjusting. And those players were probly your ex sailor mentions. She also figured out the sailing system (besides manual through the wind which is simple once you watch one video) to the point where she said "if I zig zag towards the wind will that work?" So she figured out tacking, done.

[Flip]

.

 

I got the whole fighting system for 1v1s figured out as I said in just one afternoon. After that I was out in my small ship of choice with small OS visibility range, with privateer stealth skillsets, hunting alone in the red areas, lurking using my low visibility to stay safe from ganks and 6 groups. Lone prey was rare in the minuscle red zones (and the activity boring as hell, one of the reasons I lost interest in that game pretty quickly), but when lone prey was found, even with a strongly unoptimized skillset for fighting (stealth skills demanded very unoptimal builds for fighting), I won most of my engagements and was able to win vs much heavier and better ships for 1v1 than my own. From taking down capri MCs in a Cerberus, to forcing surrenders of Couronnes in a Discovery, to taking on a Wenden with a Raa and forcing him to pay me a fortune so I wouldn't sink his expensive 3rd rate. I would say that I didn't have a problem with that game's fighting system at all, leaderboards or not.

 

 

So your saying you figured out 1v1's in one afternoon, or so you think, went out, got sunk, and resorted to small boat ganking? Yea, I expected that honestly. How can you figure out a system in one night, never use it, never become the best and STILL say you figured it out.

 

That is not good logic sir.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

See you come at it from a different perspective, from a sim standpoint, yes it was dumbed down. I am talking from a game standpoint. Just because the ships sail in a dumbed down way doesn't make the game itself dumbed down. The issue is I doubt you learned it to full potential, people could range from terrible to good. At its core it was actually as complicated as naval action is, think of it this way, in NA you sail and shoot. In Potbs you sailed, and managed skills and had to deal with faster paced action. Each had their own complexities but they are both complex.

 

My little sister came over and played NA at age 9 being a huge disney pirate movie fan, doesn't that make it uncomplex too? She aimed better than the other 3 players in the PvE match she was in, she figured it out fast, firing test shots and adjusting. And those players were probly your ex sailor mentions. She also figured out the sailing system (besides manual through the wind which is simple once you watch one video) to the point where she said "if I zig zag towards the wind will that work?" So she figured out tacking, done.

 

I'd say that simply means that NA has found a sweet spot between skill and simpleness that will work for gamers of any level.  No need to make it less complex than it is right now, in fact, this anecdote may argue for making it a little harder.

[Flip]

I'd say that simply means that NA has found a sweet spot between skill and simpleness that will work for gamers of any level.  No need to make it less complex than it is right now, in fact, this anecdote may argue for making it a little harder.

I want it harder, ironically people think I want it dumbed down but they are keeping it dumbed down because "lets all fear management and multitasking."

[KillBox]

Obviously the yacht is not, I meant if they sell bigger ships to keep the lights on at some point.

 

They have no plans to do otherwise.  Paid content (I believe admin mentions it somewhere on one of the pre-order threads) will be vanity content for the most parts.  As far as ships go, for the most part the whole community here is agreed that it should remain restricted to pleasure-boats, gigs and other nice-to-haves.

 

We will most likely see custom flags and pennants, paint schemes, nicer uniforms on the Avatar etc. as cash-shop content.  And if this game engages me, I will purchase this content.

 

 

I'd say that simply means that NA has found a sweet spot between skill and simpleness that will work for gamers of any level.  No need to make it less complex than it is right now, in fact, this anecdote may argue for making it a little harder.

 

Flip just effectively proved my point.  The Soft Sim is Soft enough for a 9-year old to pick up in an evening.  No need to alter the game's vision to pander - if she can do it, the average Steam buyer can do it too, which will do wonders for new player experiences and retention.

 

I want it harder, ironically people think I want it dumbed down but they are keeping it dumbed down because "lets all fear management and multitasking."

 

There's also the point at which adding complexity for complexity's sake doesn't add to the experience.  Again, there's still loads coming in - boarding is only just in it's first iteration (nothing more than a RPS counter system at the moment).  Once that's fleshed out, along with looting and razing, there's gonna be loads to keep you mentally engaged without making the game clunky.

 

Edited for spelling.

[Johny Reb]

If you say there was "no tactical layer whatsoever" RAM then you make me doubt everything you say about learning in a night. Thats so blatantly, obviously erroneous I have to chuckle.

[RAMJB]

So your saying you figured out 1v1's in one afternoon, or so you think, went out, got sunk, and resorted to small boat ganking? Yea, I expected that honestly. How can you figure out a system in one night, never use it, never become the best and STILL say you figured it out.

 

That is not good logic sir.

 

 

Go ask Roberta Diaz. the sailing basics I had figured out beforehand because I've always had an interest in warships. The concept of sterncamping, using best sailing point, etc, he didn't even have to explain to me. All he did was comment on a good skillset and how to time the skills properly to get maximum bang for the buck. He also taught me about which parts to put in sail, guns and hull for agood combat setup, and good compromises between speed and pure combat fitting. We gave several goes at different matchups in skirmish, and after that I just set sail on my own and started my little career.

 

I didn't like 6v6s. I did some of them but I just found no pleasure in the alphastrike mechanic when someone would cast an spell on an enemy ship that would render it almost defenceless against the massed incoming fire. If I liked sorcery games I'd have played something else. So I mostly stuck in my solo lurking mode for most of my gametime in POTBS. And yes, I started doing so after a couple hours of formal training only. And my first "hunting" ship was a Cerberus (I dind't want to risk even a Raa MC - was too expensive for me as a just newcomer to lvl50). And I did get quite a success from the beginning. Of course I lost some battles. Of course in others I was forced to run. But I won more encounters than what I lost, and always against bigger ships.

 

Your "complex" system was just the most simple stuff one can imagine. You can insist on how "complex" it was all you want. It was just that easy as to use your ship with a brain ,exploit your smaller ship maneouverability , decide where the weakness of the enemy was because of his ship/career, and from there use a series of appropiate debuffs on the enemy and buffs on your own ship while outmaneouvering it, which against most players was laughably easy to pull off.

 

 

That's your "complex" system at work. One afternoon of essential training and explanation of a proper combat build (that on my special insistance had stealth skills for my role), learn the proper sequence of activation for each situation and go out and destroy stuff.

 

Verry hard indeed, comrade. Verry hard.

[Flip]

They have no plans to do otherwise.  Paid content (I believe admin mentions it somewhere on one of the pre-order threads) will be vanity content for the most parts.  As far as ships go, for the most part the whole community here is agreed that it should remain restricted to pleasure-boats, gigs and other nice-to-haves.

 

We will most likely see custom flags and pennants, paint schemes, nicer uniforms on the Avatar etc. as cash-shop content.  And if this game engages me, I will purchase this content.

 

 

 

Flip just effectively proved my point.  The Soft Sim is Soft enough for a 9-year old to pick up in an evening.  No need to alter the game's vision to pander - if she can do it, the average Steam buyer can do it too, which will do wonders for new player experiences and retention.

 

 

There's also the point at which adding complexity for complexity's sake doesn't add to the experience.  Again, there's still loads coming in - boarding is only just in it's first iteration (nothing more than a RPS counter system at the moment).  Once that's fleshed out, along with looting and razing, there's gonna be loads to keep you mentally engaged without making the game clunky.

 

Edited for spelling.

 

 

My fear is a lack of complexity not now, not after 100 battles but after 1000 + battles after launch or some large numbers. At some point sailing and shooting does and will get boring if there isn't 'more.'

 

Whether that more is bigger battles, more cohesion, scenarios, or more complex combat we will have to wait and see.

 

The thing people forget is its 6 devs in Unity, this isn't a massive corporation and we may not see launch for 2 years. We may not see the things 90% of the people on these forums ask for and assume we are getting. How complex will boarding get? Probly not very complex, I doubt we will see 100's of AI fighting on the ships with a RTS style control or whatever people are dreaming about.

[Flip]

Go ask Roberta Diaz. the sailing basics I had figured out beforehand because I've always had an interest in warships. The concept of sterncamping, using best sailing point, etc, he didn't even have to explain to me. All he did was comment on a good skillset and how to time the skills properly to get maximum bang for the buck. He also taught me about which parts to put in sail, guns and hull for agood combat setup, and good compromises between speed and pure combat fitting. We gave several goes at different matchups in skirmish, and after that I just set sail on my own and started my little career.

 

I didn't like 6v6s. I did some of them but I just found no pleasure in the alphastrike mechanic when someone would cast an spell on an enemy ship that would render it almost defenceless against the massed incoming fire. If I liked sorcery games I'd have played something else. So I mostly stuck in my solo lurking mode for most of my gametime in POTBS. And yes, I started doing so after a couple hours of formal training only. And my first "hunting" ship was a Cerberus (I dind't want to risk even a Raa MC - was too expensive for me as a just newcomer to lvl50). And I did get quite a success from the beginning. Of course I lost some battles. Of course in others I was forced to run. But I won more encounters than what I lost, and always against bigger ships.

 

Your "complex" system was just the most simple stuff one can imagine. You can insist on how "complex" it was all you want. It was just that easy as to use your ship with a brain ,exploit your smaller ship maneouverability , decide where the weakness of the enemy was because of his ship/career, and from there use a series of appropiate debuffs on the enemy and buffs on your own ship while outmaneouvering it, which against most players was laughably easy to pull off.

 

 

That's your "complex" system at work. One afternoon of essential training and explanation of a proper combat build (that on my special insistance had stealth skills for my role), learn the proper sequence of activation for each situation and go out and destroy stuff.

 

Verry hard indeed, comrade. Verry hard.

 

You still never used it, and by avoiding 6v6 you missed the most complex PvP in the game.

 

You obviously played the game wrong and the fact you say "verry" hard despite never being the best or good at any facet of the game in which complex PvP was involved makes me laugh. Its like you watched someone get a hole in one in golf, watched a video on how to do it, NEVER golfed and went "oh thats very hard, I could do it." Laughable at best.

[RAMJB]

If you say there was "no tactical layer whatsoever" RAM then you make me doubt everything you say about learning in a night. Thats so blatantly, obviously erroneous I have to chuckle.

 

 

As I said ask Roberta Diaz (wherever he is hope he hears about this game and comes here. I'm sure he'd love it). One training session of one afternoon, no more than couple hours and I went out hunting.

 

Sure, Port battles had indeed a lot of tactical depth. Day to day PVP?....for solo hunting it was cheap easy. For group it was more complicated because it required several guys to coordinate properly, give good covers, take solid movement choices, and then time the debuff/alphastrikes well. But I wouldn't call that "complicated" or "complex", when most of what was required was a basic understanding of how the ships moved, and the rest was coordination and learning how to provide and ask for blocks. 6v6 was never my thing though. Tried it, and couldn't stand the magic sorcery and unreal spells (I mean skills) that made that anything but a believable NAVAL fight (which was what was supposed to represent).

 

for solo hunting in small ships, one afternoon to learn the ropes, the rest I learned on my own. And I had pretty good success from the beginning. Again, don't ask me, ask those who knew me at the time. Problem is of course I don't know where they're hiding....(Roberta, Miguel; where are you!)

[Johny Reb]

I also don't think dumbed down is a fair word. Arcade like sure, WoW like sure, but it wasn't dumbed down per se. I think the testament to this is that the primary age of players was adult. Kids didn't last long in the game. Success in groups for instance required more than just clicking a skill. It required precision, cohesion, decision making, timing, yes skill use, quick thinking, and attention to others. Many of these things i have yet to see pan out in NA. I'm sure it will. But for these reasons Potbs was considered by many to be one of the best if not best pvp game on the market.

 

So, yes, it was not created as a "soft-sim", but it moved us down the road to where we are now and where we will be in the future.

[RAMJB]

You still never used it, and by avoiding 6v6 you missed the most complex PvP in the game.

 

playing 6v6 I could've been playing Lords of the Magic Realms of the Spaceships of Another Era for all it was worth. It had the same feeling of warship combat as playing golf. Sorry, I was in that game because it was supposed to be about ships. Not about sorcery. And 6v6 was what it was only because an horrible limitation on PvP areas, and limits in the way instances were designed. As much "complexity" you put upon that (which I fail to see anywhere beyond practicing coordination with the other 5 guys), 6v6 was always the same. Debuff an exposed enemy, alphastrike him to death, and hope he doesn't get a block in time. Rinse and repeat while throwing some timed invincibilities in case of emergency, break formations when the situation was bad and the enemy was close enough and little else.

 

How complex.

[RAMJB]

I also don't think dumbed down is a fair word. Arcade like sure, WoW like sure, but it wasn't dumbed down per se

 

Under those standards WoW is one of the most complex games out there. Well, call it the way you want to call it. Watered down. Unrealistic. Unimmersive.

 

In any case you guys are shooting yourself in the foot. if your games were so "complex" and had "so much to learn" and so many "layers of complexity" which were "so hard to master", then POTBS should've been a very complicated game. According to your repeated fears of complexities of NA forcing "casuals" out of the game, POTBS should've been very casual unfriendly because it was so complex, right?.

 

Then where's the problem in this being a very complicated game, but within realistic realms instead of in magic realms?. If your so-called "complexity" didn't force casuals out of the game, why would "Complexities" in this game do so?. Only because this game's "complexities" come from the fact that it's more or less realistic?.

 

Your argument just falls down the moment you try to defend POTBS as anything but a dumbed down, very simplistic game. If it was complex, and people didn't run from it, then if this game is complex, noone will run from it. Then stop arguing about realism making things hard. Who cares. Maybe it would be better if the things making it hard were to figure out when to use some magic spells like Jugular?.

 

Makes no sense whatsoever.

[Johny Reb]

As I said ask Roberta Diaz (wherever he is hope he hears about this game and comes here. I'm sure he'd love it). One training session of one afternoon, no more than couple hours and I went out hunting.

 

Sure, Port battles had indeed a lot of tactical depth. Day to day PVP?....for solo hunting it was cheap easy. For group it was more complicated because it required several guys to coordinate properly, give good covers, take solid movement choices, and then time the debuff/alphastrikes well. But I wouldn't call that "complicated" or "complex", when most of what was required was a basic understanding of how the ships moved, and the rest was coordination and learning how to provide and ask for blocks. 6v6 was never my thing though. Tried it, and couldn't stand the magic sorcery and unreal spells (I mean skills) that made that anything but a believable NAVAL fight (which was what was supposed to represent).

 

for solo hunting in small ships, one afternoon to learn the ropes, the rest I learned on my own. And I had pretty good success from the beginning. Again, don't ask me, ask those who knew me at the time. Problem is of course I don't know where they're hiding....(Roberta, Miguel; where are you!)

With all do respect, you just solidified my opinion. You claim you didn't like the magic in 6v6 so you didn't do it, so instead you went solo so you could..... wait for it.... use magic skills. I'm sure all you did in your solo fights was auto shot.

 

I think the real reason you didn't 6v6 has something to do more likely with the unrevealed reasons you don't like clans.

 

Next, it seems as if your saying that "just because I can learn it, its not complex" How long did it take you to learn NA. For me, it was less time than it took me to learn Potbs. So which one is less complex. Also, learning some outfittings, a basic understanding of wind, and a proper skill set does not make you pro or necessarily a good source on judging a game that you choose to not play in its totality.

[RAMJB]

With all do respect, you just solidified my opinion. You claim you didn't like the magic in 6v6 so you didn't do it, so instead you went solo so you could..... wait for it.... use magic skills. I'm sure all you did in your solo fights was auto shot.

 

Now you found out why my stay in POTBS lasted less than 3 months. Even in the few and apart fights I could find (finding lone ships in a red area that was swarmed by gankers and 6 groups wasn't common nor easy), I never felt any immersion so I just stopped playing it.

 

So well, your opinion can be as solidified as you wish it to be. Doesn't mean it's any right .

[RAMJB]

also

 

Next, it seems as if your saying that "just because I can learn it, its not complex" How long did it take you to learn NA.

 

 

I never stated anything like this game being complex. It's actually not. I'm trying to get some big-sized youtubers to play this game (Sidestrafe, for instance) and their only reluctance is that they perceive it as complicated. My counter-argument is that it's not complicated at all once you learn the basics. And it's not.

 

It's not me in this thread, or this forums, saying that this game is too complicated. Its -YOU- guys saying that it shouldn't be too complex for newcomers. And my argument is precisely that: that being realistic doesn't mean getting more complex than many other games out there that people play. People confuse realistic with complex; mix that with the natural reluctance of the "casuals" to play any game that doesnt' give them instant reward without any learning required, and thats where I stand: That I don't care about casuals who don't want to learn and are too lazy to do so and want games that mouthfeed them. I want a realistic game; that doesn't mean it should be COMPLEX. It can be both realistic and not really hard to learn.

 

And that was exactly my point when I commented about DCS games. THOSE are complex games (and big time,specialy if you want to get your systems working in a Ka-50 or an A10, or a Mig21), and still have an ample following. This is several levels below in complexity. But it still keeps immersion and realistic feelings. So I don't see why we should dumb anything further to cater for the big mass of "casuals" who don't give a damn about learning the game they're playing. Not because the game is complex (WoT is a damn easy game to learn how to play and is composed of 80% of people who still don't know how to angle the armor of their tank at tier 10), but because they're lazy.

 

Let those players stay in their games of choice: make this game DIFFERENT. And don't dumb it down and don't sacrifize its realistic and immersive feeling just because lazy-ass players don't feel like learning a game before the game rewards them. That's my point. Not that this game is complex. I never stated such a thing.

[Johny Reb]

Under those standards WoW is one of the most complex games out there. Well, call it the way you want to call it. Watered down. Unrealistic. Unimmersive.

 

In any case you guys are shooting yourself in the foot. if your games were so "complex" and had "so much to learn" and so many "layers of complexity" which were "so hard to master", then POTBS should've been a very complicated game. According to your repeated fears of complexities of NA forcing "casuals" out of the game, POTBS should've been very casual unfriendly because it was so complex, right?.

 

Then where's the problem in this being a very complicated game, but within realistic realms instead of in magic realms?. If your so-called "complexity" didn't force casuals out of the game, why would "Complexities" in this game do so?. Only because this game's "complexities" come from the fact that it's more or less realistic?.

 

Your argument just falls down the moment you try to defend POTBS as anything but a dumbed down, very simplistic game. If it was complex, and people didn't run from it, then if this game is complex, noone will run from it. Then stop arguing about realism making things hard. Who cares. Maybe it would be better if the things making it hard were to figure out when to use some magic spells like Jugular?.

 

Makes no sense whatsoever.

I am not Flip. there is no we here. I will defend his point of view when i believe it to be valid and I will defend yours when it is valid.

 

Your definition of complex is an enigma. I can't figure it out unless you mean "SIM" If thats what you mean then yes, every other game out there is not complex. Also its always simple to make something look easy or not "complex" by just rattling off the highlights. Its not a really strong argument.

 

The truth is that Potbs had so many carebears because pvp was difficult to master and expensive to learn. These carebears had other things to do and thats why the game lasted as long as it did. Now for the life of me i can not understand why carebears played the game. Potbs was boring as hell if you werent pvp'ing or someone that just loved the immersion of the economy.

 

And theres a difference between the complexities of learning the basics that allow you to enjoy the game vs the complexities of learning them well.

[RAMJB]

The truth is that Potbs had so many carebears because pvp was difficult to master and expensive to learn.

 

 

 

Wrong. The reason that POTBS had so many carebears is because being a carebear was easy, required no learning, gave MASSIVE profits (only doing dailies would make you a multimillionaire in little time) but avobe all, it didn't require them risking their lovely profits, nor their beautiful pixel ships in a battle. They didn't go into PVP because they were scared. They didn't want to lose, nor they didn't want to spend the neccessary time losing ships to learn how to win.

 

Not because it was difficult to master. About expensive to learn, a Cerberus MC with fittings was dirt cheap, and that was my first PVP boat where I did my babysteps on playing solo and I did very well with it. Of course I lost several of them, but I wouldn't call replacing them as "expensive". Heck, they were dirt cheap, and so were the outfittings. It only was expensive when you brought LSB ships, or MoV/MoT ships to the battle. But noone forced anyone to PvP in an expensive ship.

 

Again, POTBS had so many carebears and so little PVP because OMAGAWD I DONT WANNA BE KILLD. Not because of any other reason.

[KillBox]

My fear is a lack of complexity not now, not after 100 battles but after 1000 + battles after launch or some large numbers. At some point sailing and shooting does and will get boring if there isn't 'more.'

 

Whether that more is bigger battles, more cohesion, scenarios, or more complex combat we will have to wait and see.

 

The thing people forget is its 6 devs in Unity, this isn't a massive corporation and we may not see launch for 2 years. We may not see the things 90% of the people on these forums ask for and assume we are getting. How complex will boarding get? Probly not very complex, I doubt we will see 100's of AI fighting on the ships with a RTS style control or whatever people are dreaming about.

 

More what, exactly?

 

Look, Naval Action is just that - it's about Naval Action.  World of Tanks has people coming back after 30 000 battles and it has only 3 consumables, left click, right-click, scroll and WASD.  Yet it remains compelling for many different reasons not related to how complex or simple the game is.  It gets down to how compelling the game play is.  Done right, you can fight a million battles and never get bored.  Done wrong, people will stop playing your game.  It's a self-righting, self-teaching system, and it works.  Again, look at my older post - there's going to be loads to do not specifically related to combat.

 

Also - I'm a Star Citizen backer - I've already waited out 2 years for that, and will wait it out twice over if it means that we finally have a game not being crapped on by EA.  Ditto for Naval Action.  Take your time, guys.  Get those specs out for user-ships so we can help generate content.

 

On your third point - really, you should just use canister shot on that straw-man, okay?  Nobody asked for Total War: Naval Action or 360noramrodmusketsnipe FPS combat either.  A few animations on deck and muskets being fired by Marines is more than satisfactory.  I was referring to perhaps adding more options and more counters to avoid playing Rock-Paper-Scissors Online, and then having Open World options once the prize is taken (loot and scuttle, assign a prize crew etc.) which aren't immediately relevant, but will be.

 

Look, as it stands, it's a nice video, and I get where you're coming from.  I don't agree with everything, but hey, whatever.  Right now though, I've made nearly a dozen fair points you've yet to address - you don't have to of course.  It's a free internet.

 

But I'm done here.  Pass me a Lime and some Rum and I'll see myself out.

[Johny Reb]

also

 

 

 

I never stated anything like this game being complex. It's actually not. I'm trying to get some big-sized youtubers to play this game (Sidestrafe, for instance) and their only reluctance is that they perceive it as complicated. My counter-argument is that it's not complicated at all once you learn the basics. And it's not.

 

It's not me in this thread, or this forums, saying that this game is too complicated. Its -YOU- guys saying that it shouldn't be too complex for newcomers. And my argument is precisely that: that being realistic doesn't mean getting more complex than many other games out there that people play. People confuse realistic with complex; mix that with the natural reluctance of the "casuals" to play any game that doesnt' give them instant reward without any learning required, and thats where I stand: That I don't care about casuals who don't want to learn and are too lazy to do so and want games that mouthfeed them. I want a realistic game; that doesn't mean it should be COMPLEX. It can be both realistic and not really hard to learn.

 

And that was exactly my point when I commented about DCS games. THOSE are complex games (and big time,specialy if you want to get your systems working in a Ka-50 or an A10, or a Mig21), and still have an ample following. This is several levels below in complexity. But it still keeps immersion and realistic feelings. So I don't see why we should dumb anything further to cater for the big mass of "casuals" who don't give a damn about learning the game they're playing. Not because the game is complex (WoT is a damn easy game to learn how to play and is composed of 80% of people who still don't know how to angle the armor of their tank at tier 10), but because they're lazy.

 

Let those players stay in their games of choice: make this game DIFFERENT. And don't dumb it down and don't sacrifize its realistic and immersive feeling just because lazy-ass players don't feel like learning a game before the game rewards them. That's my point. Not that this game is complex. I never stated such a thing.

Ok i'm with you now. We are pretty much in agreement here. I don't want to dumb it down at all. I'd in fact like to see features added to it.

 

I just respect the fact that these developers probably want to make a ton of money on this game and the players want people to fight so if it is to sim like then we won't have either. I would prefer a balance between an easy mechanic to learn the basic of sailing and shooting but those who take the time to learn angles and orders and manual sailing etc will have the advantage. So have both elements. An easy to learn mechanic that involves a complex foundation that will allow the ambitious captain to seperate himself from the rest.

[Johny Reb]

Wrong. The reason that POTBS had so many carebears is because being a carebear was easy, required no learning, gave MASSIVE profits (only doing dailies would make you a multimillionaire in little time) but avobe all, it didn't require them risking their lovely profits, nor their beautiful pixel ships in a battle. They didn't go into PVP because they were scared. They didn't want to lose, nor they didn't want to spend the neccessary time losing ships to learn how to win.

 

Not because it was difficult to master. About expensive to learn, a Cerberus MC with fittings was dirt cheap, and that was my first PVP boat where I did my babysteps on playing solo and I did very well with it. Of course I lost several of them, but I wouldn't call replacing them as "expensive". Heck, they were dirt cheap, and so were the outfittings. It only was expensive when you brought LSB ships, or MoV/MoT ships to the battle. But noone forced anyone to PvP in an expensive ship.

 

Again, POTBS had so many carebears and so little PVP because OMAGAWD I DONT WANNA BE KILLD. Not because of any other reason.

well its one and the same man! If pvp was easy to learn then the confidence to go out and fight would be higher and more people would do it. This fact combined with the cost aspect and then add on some pay to win ships and no noob wanted anything to do with pvp. When cap mc was 75K and a decent ship you would see alot more newer players sailing the ocean. Or a dauntless at 100K for group fights which was the ship i learned on, you'd see more fighting. When they changed everything so that the cap mc was useless and so was the dauntless, not to mention its price tripled, pvp participation all but vanished. Lots of reasons for why people didn't pvp but these two were HUGE.

[Flip]

More what, exactly?

 

Look, Naval Action is just that - it's about Naval Action.  World of Tanks has people coming back after 30 000 battles and it has only 3 consumables, left click, right-click, scroll and WASD.  Yet it remains compelling for many different reasons not related to how complex or simple the game is.  It gets down to how compelling the game play is.  Done right, you can fight a million battles and never get bored.  Done wrong, people will stop playing your game.  It's a self-righting, self-teaching system, and it works.  Again, look at my older post - there's going to be loads to do not specifically related to combat.

 

Also - I'm a Star Citizen backer - I've already waited out 2 years for that, and will wait it out twice over if it means that we finally have a game not being crapped on by EA.  Ditto for Naval Action.  Take your time, guys.  Get those specs out for user-ships so we can help generate content.

 

On your third point - really, you should just use canister shot on that straw-man, okay?  Nobody asked for Total War: Naval Action or 360noramrodmusketsnipe FPS combat either.  A few animations on deck and muskets being fired by Marines is more than satisfactory.  I was referring to perhaps adding more options and more counters to avoid playing Rock-Paper-Scissors Online, and then having Open World options once the prize is taken (loot and scuttle, assign a prize crew etc.) which aren't immediately relevant, but will be.

 

Look, as it stands, it's a nice video, and I get where you're coming from.  I don't agree with everything, but hey, whatever.  Right now though, I've made nearly a dozen fair points you've yet to address - you don't have to of course.  It's a free internet.

 

But I'm done here.  Pass me a Lime and some Rum and I'll see myself out.

 

Thanks for the comments and compliments.

 

I thank you for the debate good sir!

[Flip]

playing 6v6 I could've been playing Lords of the Magic Realms of the Spaceships of Another Era for all it was worth. It had the same feeling of warship combat as playing golf. Sorry, I was in that game because it was supposed to be about ships. Not about sorcery. And 6v6 was what it was only because an horrible limitation on PvP areas, and limits in the way instances were designed. As much "complexity" you put upon that (which I fail to see anywhere beyond practicing coordination with the other 5 guys), 6v6 was always the same. Debuff an exposed enemy, alphastrike him to death, and hope he doesn't get a block in time. Rinse and repeat while throwing some timed invincibilities in case of emergency, break formations when the situation was bad and the enemy was close enough and little else.

 

How complex.

 

Good sir, the argument is on complexity, not the feeling of magic, 

 

6v6's were more complicated than you can ever imagine from your 3 month stay.  Anyone can do what your doing, ill do it to NA right now, all you do is learn to sail and aim, and then sail and aim and shoot. How complex. See how your arguments are flawed?

[Balck]

well its one and the same man! If pvp was easy to learn then the confidence to go out and fight would be higher and more people would do it. This fact combined with the cost aspect and then add on some pay to win ships and no noob wanted anything to do with pvp. When cap mc was 75K and a decent ship you would see alot more newer players sailing the ocean. Or a dauntless at 100K for group fights which was the ship i learned on, you'd see more fighting. When they changed everything so that the cap mc was useless and so was the dauntless, not to mention its price tripled, pvp participation all but vanished. Lots of reasons for why people didn't pvp but these two were HUGE.

Exactly!

 

People would grind and do dailies to get 1st rates and what would they do with them?  Grind fleets...  To get another rated ship.  Mine financed all of my PB/PVP ships and I quit when they nerfed the hell out of it because the grind was retarded.  If PVP is made easy to get into, without penalizing the players who sink so harshly, pretty much everyone would jump in.  

 

Any of you heard of World War 2 Online: Battleground Europe?  It's all PVP.  It's still going, 13 years later.  Easy to get in, hard to master.  They've lagged behind in graphics but the gameplay is outstanding.  I played that for 8 years straight and STILL come back to it.  I hope to do the same with NA.