The Problem with the Netherlands

[Aventador]

The name Verenigde Provinciën and the flag used in the game do not coincide historically. Verenigde Provinciën was associated with the Dutch Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Republic. While the Red,White, and Darker blue started here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Holland and from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Principality_of_the_United_Netherlands until the present day. So I am proposing that Verenigde Provinciën be changed to Nederlanden 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Aventador
British part is okay for the time period.

[Lord Vicious]

Yeah i am sure that this name fix gonna bring back the 99,7% of the players this game have lost.

 

I suggest to fix on other priorities like, players to populate such nations before debate wich name is more appropriate

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard]

The older names sound older, more Historical, more legendary,more enticing.

I say no, keep the older names with their charm.

[SteelSandwich]

When was it decided that the game represented 1813?

[Lancella Dutch de Wildt]

For heavens sake please no... Nederlanden brrr
Already bad we have to sail with a modern Dutch flag...
 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Lancella Dutch de Wildt

[Aventador]

33 minutes ago, SteelSandwich said:

When was it decided that the game represented 1813?

Currently with the names and flags these nations never existed at the same time or at all. If you changed the names to what I suggested there would only be 1 year where they all existed... 1813. Because Denmark-Norway dissolved in 1814. I think it would be a good thing to use as a backbone because of the napoloenic wars and the war of 1812. All nations were at war at this period in time.

[Aventador]

5 hours ago, Captain Jean-Luc Picard said:

The older names sound older, more Historical, more legendary,more enticing.

I say no, keep the older names with their charm.

 

40 minutes ago, Lancella Dutch de Wildt said:

For heavens sake please no... Nederlanden brrr
Already bad we have to sail with a modern Dutch flag...
 

So you would both rather keep unhistorical stuff in a game that involves history?

Edited May 7, 2017 by Aventador

[Aventador]

8 hours ago, Lord Vicious said:

Yeah i am sure that this name fix gonna bring back the 99,7% of the players this game have lost.

 

I suggest to fix on other priorities like, players to populate such nations before debate wich name is more appropriate

 

[SteelSandwich]

The game is set in the age of sail, without using a specific date. Regardless if any date is more historically accurate due to nations/regions. With that in mind it serves no purpose to change the dutch name, since during most of the age of sail they were the dutch republic.

[Thonys]

 

well it could do no harm i guess, to make the vlag put in his historical colors( its a obvious historical mistake)

the flag difference\from the period the games is played

 1588-1795 (age of SAILS) navy 1588-1795

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statenvlag

the best option for the period is the statesflag or perhaps the prince flag 

The Statenvlag ("States Flag") is the name of the flag of the States-General of the Dutch Republic, the red-white-blue tricolour flag replacing the older orange-white-blue Prince's Flag in the mid 17th century. The modern national flag of the Netherlands, officially introduced in 1937, is based on this historical flag.

The origin of the red-white-blue tricolour is not entirely clear; some sources suggest that it developed merely as a variant of red-white-orange because the orange dye would tend to fade to red over time. However, there have also been suggestions to the effect that the red-white-blue flag might predate the introduction of the Prince's Flag in the 1570s. Thus, Muller (1862) suggested that the colours were taken from the coat of arms of the Bavarian house, the rulers of the county of Holland during 1354–1433, who used the Bavarian coat of arms quartered with the arms of the counts of Holland.^[1]

During the early part of the First Stadtholderless Period (1650–1672), the government of the Dutch Republic wanted to appease the republican government of the Commonwealth of England, and because the colour orange was associated with the House of Stuart, the orange-white-blue Prince's Flag was banned in 1652, replaced by the red-white-blue "States Flag". ^[2] According to de Waard (1900), the Dutch navy between 1588 and 1630 always displayed the Prince's Flag,

 Navy 1588-1662 (a option for the duch flag?)

 

and after 1663 always the States Flag, but both flag variants were in use during the period of 1630–1662.^[3] It appears that prior to 1664, the red-white-blue tricolor was commonly known as the "Flag of Holland" (Hollandsche Vlag). In 1664, the States of Zeeland complained about this, and a resolution of the States-General introduced the name "States Flag" (Statenvlag).^[4]

 

 1795-1806 French Republic. The Batavian Republic became a client state, the first of the "sister-republics"

 

1806-1810 The Kingdom of Holland (Dutch: Koninkrijk Holland, French: Royaume de Hollande) was set up by Napoleon Bonaparte as a puppet kingdom for his third brother, Louis Bonaparte, [what means the flag in this game is from 1815  and not in the age of sails

 

1810-1815 french    (! haha dont thinks so..)

 

 Navy 1815- till now  United Kingdom of the Netherlands (1815–1839) (Dutch: Verenigd Koninkrijk der Nederlanden, French: Royaume uni des Pays-Bas) was the unofficial name for the Kingdom of the Netherlands 

the Flag is from the>>>>>>>  kingdom..(what we have atm)....(not the republic)

suggestion :statesflag or the prince flag

EDIT :

i still play a SALT water game

to give you an example:

 or 

or:the one and only..

perhaps now you understand what we mean

Reinier Nooms (1623-1664), Voor de Slag bij Duins, 21 October 1639.

                                     |      

(french)kingdom flag (what we have now)   |     states flag(United provinces 1588-1795)

look at the colors ,the states flag is painted here not the flag of the kingdom (french)),kingdom after 1806)

OT

the question remains , does it matter ?

well actualy... it does matter ..it does not feel right 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

for the americans isseu

here is the flag from 1777 united states

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_States

just to give you some history 

First official salute to the American flag on board an American warship in a foreign port, at St. Eustatius in the West Indies, on November 16, 1776

https://be.wikipedia.org/wiki/Файл:Andrew_Doria_NH_85510-KN.jpghttps://be.wikipedia.org/wiki/Файл:Andrew_Doria_NH_85510-KN.jpg

Edited May 9, 2017 by Thonys

[Christendom]

I'd say we have more important things that need to be fixed first, but those don't seem to be a priority either.  The patch is going to include everything in it but the kitchen sink, might as well fix the flags. 

[Siegfried]

5 hours ago, Aventador said:

 

So you would both rather keep unhistorical stuff in a game that involves history?

How important is the number of stars in the USA flag when you put it in your L'Ocean, Santisima or Victory ship?

The NA date is 1813 when you sail your Santissima (sunken in october of 1805 BTW) with USA flag bringing democracy and freedom conquering Portobelo, Sisal, Cartagena or ...(put any of 300 ports that never were property of USA here)?

I can't to decide if the correct dutch flag in that Constitution is orange or red in the upper side.

If I see a Surprise with french flag, that means NA is happening before 20th april of 1796 and not in 1813? (Surprise was dismantled long before that date anyway)

If I sail from a spanish owned port in Jamaica in my spanish ship, is more accurate the yellow-red flag? Or the white with red X would be better?

I think my point is understood in this moment...

Edited May 7, 2017 by Siegfried

[OlavDeng2]

The game isnt set in a single set date, otherwise what about the mercury? she was launched 1820. So is the game 1820? but then, the santi sank way before that so that doesnt really fit... The Wappen von Hamburg was also decommissioned before 1750 some time(cant recall exactly when sorry), so how come we have the US in the game? using a single date isnt possible since there are just way too many inaccuracies with that. I think the name and the flags in game at the moment are perfectly fine.

[Thonys]

28 minutes ago, OlavDeng2 said:

The game isnt set in a single set date, otherwise what about the mercury? she was launched 1820. So is the game 1820? but then, the santi sank way before that so that doesnt really fit... The Wappen von Hamburg was also decommissioned before 1750 some time(cant recall exactly when sorry), so how come we have the US in the game? using a single date isnt possible since there are just way too many inaccuracies with that. I think the name and the flags in game at the moment are perfectly fine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

but it is not going about the mercury or the hamburg........ its about flags (perhaps the dev s should make a proper decision for a date set in this matter )

i really dont care about any other ship whatever the age may be,  they can put a modern cruiser from russia in it,..... i dont care....(let them have their ship  )

by the way:

i am only interested in dutch ships (they can put in every ship they like, its ^ nothing compared to the one and only dutch ships :))  )

 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Thonys

[Lancella Dutch de Wildt]

6 hours ago, Aventador said:

 

So you would both rather keep unhistorical stuff in a game that involves history?

Didn't say that, just get rid of the modern Dutch flag should have given you a clue of which time of the Netherlands I would prefer...

4 hours ago, SteelSandwich said:

The game is set in the age of sail, without using a specific date. Regardless if any date is more historically accurate due to nations/regions. With that in mind it serves no purpose to change the dutch name, since during most of the age of sail they were the dutch republic.

Amen

 

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard]

6 hours ago, Aventador said:

 

So you would both rather keep unhistorical stuff in a game that involves history?

We are happy with playing within a long timeframe with the innacuracies it creates rather than being stuck in a single perfectly modelled year.

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

Speaking for a couple pvp2 Dutch player: 

 

There are far more important things to be bothered with.

[Rikard Frederiksen]

Using the term 'United Kingdom' for this era just seems terribly wrong, it doesn't sound right at all. 'Great Britain' as a term is absolutely fine, is period correct and doesn't need to be changed, but I wouldn't mind a more correct 18th century Union flag, with St. Patrick's Saltire removed.

[Remus]

9 minutes ago, Rikard Frederiksen said:

Using the term 'United Kingdom' for this era just seems terribly wrong, it doesn't sound right at all. 'Great Britain' as a term is absolutely fine, is period correct and doesn't need to be changed, but I wouldn't mind a more correct 18th century Union flag, with St. Patrick's Saltire removed.

iI agree with not using UK - it wasn't official till 1801 and I doubt people used it much till we started having to fill in customs and immigaration forms in the 20th century.

But Great Britain sounds wrong too. That's the name of the island, but the country was simply Britain - though I don't have any references to hand to support this usage in the early nineteenth century.

I think I'd keep the 1801 flag though. This game seems more Napoleonic Wars / War of 1812 than eighteenth century to me.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Remus

[Aventador]

5 hours ago, Siegfried said:

How important is the number of stars in the USA flag when you put it in your L'Ocean, Santisima or Victory ship?

The NA date is 1813 when you sail your Santissima (sunken in october of 1805 BTW) with USA flag bringing democracy and freedom conquering Portobelo, Sisal, Cartagena or ...(put any of 300 ports that never were property of USA here)?

I can't to decide if the correct dutch flag in that Constitution is orange or red in the upper side.

If I see a Surprise with french flag, that means NA is happening before 20th april of 1796 and not in 1813? (Surprise was dismantled long before that date anyway)

If I sail from a spanish owned port in Jamaica in my spanish ship, is more accurate the yellow-red flag? Or the white with red X would be better?

I think my point is understood in this moment...

Ships were never part of the discussion. They lasted for years and went through many different governments. The discussion here is that the flags and the names do not match

[Aventador]

2 hours ago, Remus said:

iI agree with not using UK - it wasn't official till 1801 and I doubt people used it much till we started having to fill in customs and immigaration forms in the 20th century.

But Great Britain sounds wrong too. That's the name of the island, but the country was simply Britain - though I don't have any references to hand to support this usage in the early nineteenth century.

I think I'd keep the 1801 flag though. This game seems more Napoleonic Wars / War of 1812 than eighteenth century to me.

I would be okay with this since it could be used interchangeably . The dutch one though I think is the priority.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Aventador

[Aventador]

3 hours ago, Captain Jean-Luc Picard said:

We are happy with playing within a long timeframe with the innacuracies it creates rather than being stuck in a single perfectly modelled year.

All i'm looking for is a fix in the names. An example: The US is called the thirteen colonies but still has the 15 stars and stripes that were used 20 years later. This is exactly what the dutch issue is.

[Siegfried]

12 minutes ago, Aventador said:

Ships were never part of the discussion. They lasted for years and went through many different governments. The discussion here is that the flags and the names do not match

My post was a quote from your post where you said: "So you would both rather keep unhistorical stuff in a game that involves history?" Then, I think that ships are included in this discussion.

Anyway devs can change dutch flag upper stripe to orange and we are ready to go with the same names we have now. Is only edit a JPG file. For USA flag, no problem, make a poll between USA players and choose the number of stars you like more. Repeat with the other countries.

[Thonys]

11 hours ago, Siegfried said:

My post was a quote from your post where you said: "So you would both rather keep unhistorical stuff in a game that involves history?" Then, I think that ships are included in this discussion.

Anyway devs can change dutch flag upper stripe to orange and we are ready to go with the same names we have now. Is only edit a JPG file. For USA flag, no problem, make a poll between USA players and choose the number of stars you like more. Repeat with the other countries.

 

well siegfried, i can live with that ,

but the bleu now is cobalt bleu, its needs to be clear bleu (lighter than the bleu we have now)

more like the the states flag , or perhaps the prince flag that will do to 

greetings

[Siegfried]

2 minutes ago, Thonys said:

well siegfried, i can live with that ,

but the bleu now is cobalt bleu, its needs to be clear bleu (lighter than the bleu we have now)

more like the the states flag , or perhaps the prince flag that will do to 

greetings

Well well you are the dutch guy who know more than me of your own history.  I only pretended to say an example.

P.S. You are dutch maybe you can say what is "Grietje van Dijk". I am between a little fish who lives near of the dike/dock or some antique type of sail.