admin Posted May 5, 2017 Author Posted May 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said: How is this so. I have plenty of resources and plenty of mats to build any ship, including 1st rates. I do not have the conquest marks for the bps, the fine wood planks or the conquest marks for the permits. Why would I buy mats or resources to build ships if I do not have conquest marks or fine wood planks? Also, for any ship connie and below, the npc store can do it cheaper than me. it was before we broke the supply that could not get fixed without the wipe. (remember when NPCs suddenly started supplying everything)
TheLoneWolf Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 1 minute ago, admin said: it was before we broke the supply that could not get fixed without the wipe. (remember when NPCs suddenly started supplying everything) I am talking about the test server not the pvp1 or pvp2.
jodgi Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said: I do not have the conquest marks for the bps, the fine wood planks or the conquest marks for the permits. Build the ships you're able to, then? 17 minutes ago, AxIslander said: trading mission rewards are too small. Isn't the national eco stuff (the supply chain for crafters) better than grinding trade missions? 1
TheLoneWolf Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, jodgi said: Build the ships you're able to, then? Anything connie and below, npc store sells for cheaper than I can produce. Why would I do that? I can pick up a connie for 130k and trinc for about 68k. Cannot produce it cheaper. Anything above trinc, requires pvp marks or conquests marks. Good luck getting those on test server. Edited May 5, 2017 by TheLoneWolf
BallsOfSteel Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 4 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said: Anything above trinc, requires pvp marks or conquests marks. Good luck getting those on test server. Agree, The only way to test these is to make redeemables to then test the gathering of the resources. It is this process which needs testing to see actually how long it takes and we cant test this without the necessary marks
admin Posted May 5, 2017 Author Posted May 5, 2017 7 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said: Anything connie and below, npc store sells for cheaper than I can produce. Why would I do that? I can pick up a connie for 130k and trinc for about 68k. Cannot produce it cheaper. Anything above trinc, requires pvp marks or conquests marks. Good luck getting those on test server. thats temporary its probably going to change this week already
Twan Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, shaeberle84 said: Please devs make up your mind. Player-driven economy or not. But having the bad sides from both options is the worst you can come up with. Elaboration: NPC production is (at least at the moment) not capable of reacting to population growth and supply and demand. NPC prices are fixed. People with lots of time and lots of alts will camp NPC production and then control the market. As prices increase, only the wealthy can buy the best ships. NPC production will be limited and results in a shortfall of ships. In contrast: NPC production can work for the cheap and day-to-day ressources like coal, iron etc. 100% player-driven economy, never in my book. Just look at what people were happy to pay for a purple fir first rate a couple of months ago. I would hate to see that sort of insanity happen to standard resources. I see cartels happen in this game too. You know, it should be a choice.. if you organise properly you can get things cheaply (for the cost of labour). I am not interested in having to deal with people looking for profit outside of a shipline to sustain my ships running cost... I loved the previous idea of having to set up trade routes to get a little on the side and am sorry to see that go.. Without AI working as a "dampener" acting on the silly stuff people do, econ is going to be a pain in the ... So it's actually not so bad what the devs are doing here imo. Edited May 5, 2017 by Twan
TheLoneWolf Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 Just now, BallsOfSteel said: Agree, The only way to test these is to make redeemables to then test the gathering of the resources. It is this process which needs testing to see actually how long it takes and we cant test this without the necessary marks The resource gathering and crafting of the parts is easy. I have enough parts for 3 santis. It is the fine wood planks and, conquest marks for the bps and the pvp/conquest marks for the permits that is preventing me from crafting and selling ships. Let's do some math. pve to pvp is 10:1, pvp to conquest marks is 25:1. Santi, Vict and ocean all require 35 conquest marks. So, for a santi bp, i need 35*25*10=8750 pve marks plus another 5 conquest per ship for permits. So 5*25*10=1250 pve marks. So in total 10k pve marks at 4-5 pve marks per mission with a 4th rate that is 2500 missions in a 4th rate, to be able to craft a 1st rate... I am not even talking about fine wood planks now 1
TheLoneWolf Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 11 minutes ago, admin said: thats temporary its probably going to change this week already Will connie price increase then? or will crafting requirements be diminished (ie. no pvp marks or conquest marks)?
fremen Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 9 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said: The resource gathering and crafting of the parts is easy. I have enough parts for 3 santis. It is the fine wood planks and, conquest marks for the bps and the pvp/conquest marks for the permits that is preventing me from crafting and selling ships. Let's do some math. pve to pvp is 10:1, pvp to conquest marks is 25:1. Santi, Vict and ocean all require 35 conquest marks. So, for a santi bp, i need 35*25*10=8750 pve marks plus another 5 conquest per ship for permits. So 5*25*10=1250 pve marks. So in total 10k pve marks at 4-5 pve marks per mission with a 4th rate that is 2500 missions in a 4th rate, to be able to craft a 1st rate... I am not even talking about fine wood planks now Agree. Would be more easy forbid ships of the line to all players. Every man fight in frigates. That's all.
admin Posted May 5, 2017 Author Posted May 5, 2017 1 minute ago, TheLoneWolf said: Will connie price increase then? or will crafting requirements be diminished (ie. no pvp marks or conquest marks)? the requirements will stay. but NPCs will have a mark up to promote ship purchases from players. 1
TheLoneWolf Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 Just now, admin said: the requirements will stay. but NPCs will have a mark up to promote ship purchases from players. So basically ship price will be so high players will not pvp but do pve. That will be the end result. You then will have a deficit of pvp and conquest marks which in turn will lead to less ships being built and less pvp and so forth. As for buying ships from npc and raising prices for these, trading will be almost impossible because of port saturation. I will need to spend hours doing delivery missions to buy a ship. The argument that delivery missions will give pvp will not hold. Either I will get capped and lose my cargo once, be broke and say forget this or everyone will be like me (ie. concentrated on doing delivery missions). Time will tell but my bet is that there will be very little pvp. The way to get pvp is to make ships cheap. Players will not mind risking them but you have to reduce the crafting requirements and ingredients. Then the system will work. 4
Twan Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 15 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said: The resource gathering and crafting of the parts is easy. I have enough parts for 3 santis. It is the fine wood planks and, conquest marks for the bps and the pvp/conquest marks for the permits that is preventing me from crafting and selling ships. Let's do some math. pve to pvp is 10:1, pvp to conquest marks is 25:1. Santi, Vict and ocean all require 35 conquest marks. So, for a santi bp, i need 35*25*10=8750 pve marks plus another 5 conquest per ship for permits. So 5*25*10=1250 pve marks. So in total 10k pve marks at 4-5 pve marks per mission with a 4th rate that is 2500 missions in a 4th rate, to be able to craft a 1st rate... I am not even talking about fine wood planks now you know, that's fine. I think the total amount of marks should be about half to a quarter of the current amount, but it does promote organised pvp action outside PBs and resource organisation.. For lone wolfs however..
Fellvred Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 16 minutes ago, admin said: the requirements will stay. but NPCs will have a mark up to promote ship purchases from players. Any plans to get rid of npc ships in the shop for the live servers, or even to just limit available ships to 6/7th rates? It feels like most older players will try to blast through to the 4th and 5th rates available asap and we'll miss out on a lot of organic pvp testing on the smaller ships. Also any plans to make the new woods types super rare? Would be nice to have them as a gold sink for the veteran players while also spreading this out to the players further down the food chain (and also helping out us poor poor traders :)) If they're too common players may feel they have to have a 'rare' wood ship to be competitive.
RaimundoJoe Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 @admin Why is this Cutter more expensive then a Frigate?
TheLoneWolf Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Fellvred said: Any plans to get rid of npc ships in the shop for the live servers, or even to just limit available ships to 6/7th rates? It feels like most older players will try to blast through to the 4th and 5th rates available asap and we'll miss out on a lot of organic pvp testing on the smaller ships. Also any plans to make the new woods types super rare? Would be nice to have them as a gold sink for the veteran players while also spreading this out to the players further down the food chain (and also helping out us poor poor traders :)) If they're too common players may feel they have to have a 'rare' wood ship to be competitive. I have 4 alts and many players have alts. Do you realize how quickly I will get a connie simply capping my alts! Now how would you feel if you have to fight me in a 6/7 rate vs my connie... For the conquests marks we will simply arrange fake pb with our alts. Who cares if we lose a few ships with our alts in the pb if we get conquest marks and the 1st rate bps.. Expect pre-arranged port swapping pbs between nations to get the conquests marks. That is all that will results from this. As for gold sinks. If it is hard for the veterans. how do you think newbies will feel. End result, not many will play or only those with alts will play and/or have the advantage. Edited May 5, 2017 by TheLoneWolf 2
TheLoneWolf Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 8 minutes ago, AxIslander said: @admin Why is this Cutter more expensive then a Frigate? Cutters require provisions to craft for some strange reason. Look at crafting. That is why they cost more. 1
shaeberle84 Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 53 minutes ago, Twan said: 100% player-driven economy, never in my book. Just look at what people were happy to pay for a purple fir first rate a couple of months ago. I would hate to see that sort of insanity happen to standard resources. I see cartels happen in this game too. You know, it should be a choice.. if you organise properly you can get things cheaply (for the cost of labour). I am not interested in having to deal with people looking for profit outside of a shipline to sustain my ships running cost... I loved the previous idea of having to set up trade routes to get a little on the side and am sorry to see that go.. Without AI working as a "dampener" acting on the silly stuff people do, econ is going to be a pain in the ... So it's actually not so bad what the devs are doing here imo. It is actually the worst. A dampener would be the way to go. Instead, they rely for RARE WOODS (!!!) on NPC production and for NORMAL RESSOURCES on player production. 1
Fellvred Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 1 minute ago, TheLoneWolf said: I have 4 alts and many players have alts. Do you realize how quickly I will get a connie simply capping my alts! Now how would you fell if you have to fight me in a 6/7 rate vs my connie... As for gold sincs. If it is hard for the veterans. how do you think newbies will feel. End result, not many will play or only those with alts will play and/or have the advantage. True but those abusing the system should be banned just as always - or mechanics added to ensure farming of a small number of players/alts can't happen. If we have a situation where there are 100-200+ players pvping in a couple of regions (in 6th/7th rates) there will be no need to farm pvp marks by illegal means, there just needs to be ingame mechanics that push players towards these fights rather than pve farming I'd say getting gold on the testbed is a little too easy once you have a decent nest egg, my idea was just to allow players lower down to cash in on selling rare woods to the richer players. Those veterans playing at the top level of RvR would be incentivised to pay a lot for the small boosts/changes the woods would give.
TheLoneWolf Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Fellvred said: True but those abusing the system should be banned just as always - or mechanics added to ensure farming of a small number of players/alts can't happen. If we have a situation where there are 100-200+ players pvping in a couple of regions (in 6th/7th rates) there will be no need to farm pvp marks by illegal means, there just needs to be ingame mechanics that push players towards these fights rather than pve farming I'd say getting gold on the testbed is a little too easy once you have a decent nest egg, my idea was just to allow players lower down to cash in on selling rare woods to the richer players. Those veterans playing at the top level of RvR would be incentivised to pay a lot for the small boosts/changes the woods would give. People can be very creative. All you have to do is alternate the alts between players. Almost impossible to prove or catch. It is a reality that we need to deal with. The problem with your solution is that richer players will get richer and poor will stay poor. Rich will factor price in their ship plus a hefty profit and resell ships to poor players. A bit like real life I guess. Edited May 5, 2017 by TheLoneWolf
fremen Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 If I bought a game no one has the right to tell me how to play it. Developers are bent over and over again to tell us how we should play it and that will never work. We will not make PVP because they think it is what should be done, we will do it if we feel like it. 2
Fellvred Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 1 minute ago, TheLoneWolf said: People can be very creative. All you have to do is alternate the alts between players. Almost impossible to prove or catch. It is a reality that we need to deal with. The problem with your solution is that richer players will get richer and poor will stay poor. Rich will factor price in their ship plus a hefty profit and resell ships to poor players. A bit like real like I guess. If the ships are that expensive then only other rich players will be able to buy them
shaeberle84 Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 8 hours ago, Bach said: You can still hunt npc traders for cargo and xp. After you win the boarding press (x) to bring up the cargo menu. Take the cargo and any skill books/mods into your cargo. Then clink sink ship at the top then click confirm. You get the cargo, xp and money. You just don't sail away with a useless trader hulk you break up later for next to nothing. But you cannot take the whole cargo from the trader. That is bollocks. Realisticly, it was exactly like this: after you captured a trader, you put a small crew on it who sailed to the next friendly port (with or without the main ship). Then sold the cargo (and the ship). Now it is like "hey, let us just waste halft the cargo and sink a (somewhat) precious ship". Does not make any sense. If devs want us not to use captured trader ships, make them fleet only ships. If you want to sail them, you have to buy a permit from the port. If you dont, sell them or break them up.
TheLoneWolf Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 Just now, Fellvred said: If the ships are that expensive then only other rich players will be able to buy them They will not buy them. They will craft them. Richness was never measure in gold but in mid grade notes, high grade notes, compass wood, bp etc. Gold was always easy to get and will remain so. You will simply create inflation. Poor players will pay more for ships but will nevertheless get crappy ships and the rich will keep the good resources/ships for them. Why else would you craft your own ships! 3rd to 1st rate ships will be priced in conquest marks or pvp marks not gold. That is the limiting factor in crafting. 1
jodgi Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 4 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said: End result, not many will play or only those with alts will play and/or have the advantage. People with alts will always have an advantage in an eco game. EVE is "pay to win" in that regard as well, right? Don't you have to pretend that the alts guy is really several individual players for balancing purposes?
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