Suggestion RE supply wagon

[derpus.maximus]

In historical battles, your side typically has access to several supply wagons. Why, then, in campaign, is each corps limited to one wagon with 25,000 supply max? Is this a realistic simulation of the supply situation? Get one wagon captured, and then be SOL? Would be nice to establish an ammo dump and then have several wagons - that would also prevent sides from doing too much ahistorical maneuvering across a big map (i.e. forcing the Union to slog through the Wilderness rather than take its entire army off its supply lines and punch through at one point)

[Andre Bolkonsky]

You ask a fair question, so let me give you a fair answer. 

This game is balanced on two things - historical realism and a super-simple player interface. Some players ( @A. P. Hill ) feel the gameplay can and should be broken to render a simple historical reenactment. Others, however, feel if the gameplay suffers then no one will want to play the damn game and no one will care how historically accurate it is. 

I fall in the latter camp, btw. 

Anything that disrupts the elegant simplicity of the gameplay should be eschewed. So, we have a LAUNDRY LIST of things we'd like to see but know we never will because once you start tampering with one part of the game, it tends to break in others. 

So, long story short, one wagon per corps. Fill it up as much as you want. Seemingly, (I have personally never seen this, but have heard about it) if it is empty you can send it back and get it refilled for free! So you have that going for you. 

[A. P. Hill]

Thank you!  But you give me far too much credence. 

[Bigjku]

A simple fix that wouldn't require much coding might be to have one wagon allocated per corps per division and divide the supplies among them.  Would make it easier to supply a long line and reduce the value of each wagon if lost.

[derpus.maximus]

8 hours ago, Andre Bolkonsky said:

So, long story short, one wagon per corps. Fill it up as much as you want. Seemingly, (I have personally never seen this, but have heard about it) if it is empty you can send it back and get it refilled for free! So you have that going for you. 

So when you say "send it back and get it refilled for free," what does that entail? You mean order it to Rout and then it'll respawn at the edge of the map all filled-up?

[A. P. Hill]

22 minutes ago, derpus.maximus said:

So when you say "send it back and get it refilled for free," what does that entail? You mean order it to Rout and then it'll respawn at the edge of the map all filled-up?

I have yet to see that happen. And I rout all my empty wagons.   Plus I think this is a reference to battles that show supply depots on the battle map.

[Andre Bolkonsky]

3 hours ago, derpus.maximus said:

So when you say "send it back and get it refilled for free," what does that entail? You mean order it to Rout and then it'll respawn at the edge of the map all filled-up?

Yes. That is exactly what one player reported. Rout 'YOUR' wagons off the board (not captured ones) and they returned refilled at the par level they began the scenario with. 

I have not confirmed this one, but keep looking for an opportunity. 

If you discover antying, please share!

 

[william1993]

1 hour ago, Andre Bolkonsky said:

Yes. That is exactly what one player reported. Rout 'YOUR' wagons off the board (not captured ones) and they returned refilled at the par level they began the scenario with. 

I have not confirmed this one, but keep looking for an opportunity. 

If you discover antying, please share!

 

how can you get them back once they rout off

[Andre Bolkonsky]

5 minutes ago, william1993 said:

how can you get them back once they rout off

Seemingly they return, loaded. 

It is an unfounded rumor at this point, looking for video evidence. 

And, I add quickly, this may have already been addressed and handled by the Devs. 

@Koro can you confirm or deny the 'Supply Wagon' bug, or know if it has been resolved? 

[A. P. Hill]

Again, @Andre Bolkonsky, I do not recall anyone claiming they routed their wagons, but again, I seem to recall someone saying IF there was a supply depot on the map, (in this case that small battle before Shiloh in the confederate campaign, and Fredericksburg,) it was stated that the wagons can be sent to the depot to be refilled then returned to the troops.

I cannot say that's the case however, as I haven't tired it.

[A. P. Hill]

Okay I found the "offending" thread!   This link will take you to the thread, and it will be the first post.\

(Sorry for the double post.)

[Andre Bolkonsky]

2 hours ago, A. P. Hill said:

Okay I found the "offending" thread!   This link will take you to the thread, and it will be the first post.\

(Sorry for the double post.)

No. That is the not the thread. 

A player reported another player on Steam reported . . . . wagons reload upon routing. 

That's the one you're looking for. 

But, like the Yeti of Mercanto's Sturmtruppen, I'm still looking for video evidence. 

[Koro]

8 hours ago, Andre Bolkonsky said:

Seemingly they return, loaded. 

It is an unfounded rumor at this point, looking for video evidence. 

And, I add quickly, this may have already been addressed and handled by the Devs. 

@Koro can you confirm or deny the 'Supply Wagon' bug, or know if it has been resolved? 

Jonny is the one fiddling around with supply wagons

[Karri]

Well, the player should be given some extra supply wagons, since the AI seems to have a couple of dozen of them in each battle(I assume because the AI sucks in handling them).

[A. P. Hill]

The fallacies about supply is possibly based on an inaccurate knowledge of period regulations.   And since some of the members here are triggered, when it comes to seeing actual historical information posted, I won't go into great detail,  other than to state, regulations specified that quartermaster wagons for ammo be issued at the regimental level, and increases in number going up the organization. 

I would state,  I'd like to see at least one wagon per division.  

[Karri]

16 minutes ago, A. P. Hill said:

The fallacies about supply is possibly based on an inaccurate knowledge of period regulations.   And since some of the members here are triggered, when it comes to seeing actual historical information posted, I won't go into great detail,  other than to state, regulations specified that quartermaster wagons for ammo be issued at the regimental level, and increases in number going up the organization. 

I would state,  I'd like to see at least one wagon per division.  

Supply and logistics is what true military professionals study. And had there been some more research gone to that in the game it could have easily replaced the faulty scaling system. 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

2 hours ago, Karri said:

Supply and logistics is what true military professionals study. And had there been some more research gone to that in the game it could have easily replaced the faulty scaling system. 

 

The actual quote reads, "amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics". Problem is, this is a game. It is marketed to people who pay money for fun, not a professional study of a war. 

If you think moving a dozen wagons around a battlefield is an improvement in gameplay, let me be the first to disagree with you. 

This game is based on elegant simplicity, and adding unnecessary elements doesn't improve its core value.

 

 

[Alavaria]

That would be a hilarious game, where you play as the logistician, and you scream at the AI commander for moving the guys you're trying to resupply into a bad location so that doing so is dangerous.

[Bigjku]

1 hour ago, Andre Bolkonsky said:

 

The actual quote reads, "amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics". Problem is, this is a game. It is marketed to people who pay money for fun, not a professional study of a war. 

If you think moving a dozen wagons around a battlefield is an improvement in gameplay, let me be the first to disagree with you. 

This game is based on elegant simplicity, and adding unnecessary elements doesn't improve its core value.

 

 

I don't think moving dozens is fun.  But the issue was being is such a situation where if one is taken you are screwed.  There is a happy medium between having one or none in most scenarios and having too many.  Frankly I would be just as fine having none honestly.  Having just one to cover what at times are long corps frontages is difficult sometimes.

[derpus.maximus]

So if you're going to have one wagon per corps, can you at least have an ammo dump site that the wagon can go to get refilled?

Again, that would severely penalize commanders who maneuver ahistorically off their supply lines.

And it would be more palatable, historically, than having the wagons run away and come back refilled. Because seriously?

Edited May 3, 2017 by derpus.maximus

[Karri]

5 hours ago, Andre Bolkonsky said:

 

The actual quote reads, "amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics". Problem is, this is a game. It is marketed to people who pay money for fun, not a professional study of a war. 

If you think moving a dozen wagons around a battlefield is an improvement in gameplay, let me be the first to disagree with you. 

This game is based on elegant simplicity, and adding unnecessary elements doesn't improve its core value.

 

 

No, my point was rather that you could fix the armies swelling up to trillion men because the AI sucks, or artificial 20 brigades and 1 corps rules by simply imposing logisitics rule. Ie. the south can only bring x men to Antietamn since they only have x supply. Likewise this would make the side missions way more interesting(capoture the supply depot and you can bring 10k more men, or enemy can bring 10k less etc). I wasn't suggesting that scaling can be fixed by changing all units to supply wagons

Edited May 4, 2017 by Karri

[Andre Bolkonsky]

1 hour ago, Karri said:

No, my point was rather that you could fix the armies swelling up to trillion men because the AI sucks, or artificial 20 brigades and 1 corps rules by simply imposing logisitics rule. Ie. the south can only bring x men to Antietamn since they only have x supply. Likewise this would make the side missions way more interesting(capoture the supply depot and you can bring 10k more men, or enemy can bring 10k less etc). I wasn't suggesting that scaling can be fixed by changing all units to supply wagons

Hmmm, when you put it that way, I'm listening . . . . 

[Karri]

Well, it's a pointless thought since nothing is gonna change. I am starting to think this game is practice run for the actual title. 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

4 hours ago, Karri said:

Well, it's a pointless thought since nothing is gonna change. I am starting to think this game is practice run for the actual title. 

Everything is a process. Imagine the vast leap between Gettysburg and Civil War then extrapolate forward!

Like we've said, we all have a laundry list of improvements that are fun to talk about but will likely never happen. 

But, in my own humble opinion, it's still a hell of a game. 

[Karri]

I bought the original Europa Universalis(Paradox Entertainment for those not in the know) when I was still a teenager. EU IV is quite an improvement. Hopefully this is what happens with UG series. For sure this game is worth the money still, even if it doesn't fill all my expectations(or promises, mr 'Campaign fully depends on player actions' ).