Should I use Spencers?

[Bobby Fiasco]

After winning Chickamauga, I recovered a bunch of Spencers from the brave Indiana regiments at the beginning who have them - great victory perk!

I outfitted one of my depleted brigades with them (800 men) and I'm thinking they will dish out a mighty hurt, but I'm also worried that one or two units with Spencers will start some horrible weapon scaling arms race with the AI and I will be facing down an arsenal of Confederate Spencers. Is that so? I have heeded the weapon scaling warnings about skirmishers so far so don't have experience with this. In fact if I make a skirmisher unit too, that will be my very first one.

What do you think, experienced players?

[The Soldier]

Spencer Carbines on Carbine Cavalry are monstrously good.  You won't be facing Spencers if you have other less-well equipped cavalry, though if the enemy spawns with Spencers I take that as an invitation to give more Spencers to my men.

[civsully1]

46 minutes ago, The Soldier said:

Spencer Carbines on Carbine Cavalry are monstrously good.  You won't be facing Spencers if you have other less-well equipped cavalry, though if the enemy spawns with Spencers I take that as an invitation to give more Spencers to my men.

So back to the question S....do you recommend arming skirmishers with Spencers? Or just with Cav? This would be regarding Confederate units. Thanks as usual!!

[The Soldier]

4 minutes ago, civsully1 said:

So back to the question S....do you recommend arming skirmishers with Spencers? Or just with Cav? This would be regarding Confederate units. Thanks as usual!!

Skirmishers, no.  Carbine Cavalry are both 50% bigger and can move faster without losing Stamina.  Absolutely no reason to make camp Skirmishers in the first place unless you want long-range snipers (and even then, I don't suggest that due to how scaling works).

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Use the Spencers. 

Thus endeth the lesson. 

Personally, in my most recent campaign, I have a photo of 2,700 man Divisional Brigade armed with Spencer Rifles dug into the Devil's Den at the foot of Little Round Top. It wasted EVERYTHING that came near. Broke two full strength veteran brigades coming across the creek. Awesome!

 

[Bigjku]

How on earth do you end up with that many Spencer's that early?  I haven't seen them available to buy that early for more than a couple hundreds at best.

[The Soldier]

5 minutes ago, Bigjku said:

How on earth do you end up with that many Spencer's that early?  I haven't seen them available to buy that early for more than a couple hundreds at best.

Combine brigade exploit - do note the 2771 "original" brigade size.

[Andre Bolkonsky]

1 hour ago, Bigjku said:

How on earth do you end up with that many Spencer's that early?  I haven't seen them available to buy that early for more than a couple hundreds at best.

I know a guy who knows a guy. They fell off the back of a truck. Don't ask so many questions. 

No, seriously, The Soldier explained. But it's not an 'exploit'; it is an undocumented feature of the game. There are, iirc, 400 Spencers and a consort brigade under the divisional commander which are set up to be combined back in Camp. 

On the other side of the field, there is also a Henry Brigade built in exactly the same manner. 

I enjoy this 'undocumented feature' in small doses because it allows the player, if he wishes to, enjoy a bit of 'what if' to the game. 

For example, I wanted to know what a bunch of Spencers looked like in one of the world's finest natural snipers nests ever formed. I was NOT disappointed. 

[Bobby Fiasco]

1 hour ago, Andre Bolkonsky said:

There are, iirc, 400 Spencers and a consort brigade under the divisional commander which are set up to be combined back in Camp. 

On the other side of the field, there is also a Henry Brigade built in exactly the same manner. 

That is happening later!

[Andre Bolkonsky]

1 hour ago, Bobby Fiasco said:

That is happening later!

Couple of tips: 

Don't forget to shed the skirmishers to get down below the 2,500 pop cap of a divisional brigade when combining two brigades, probably in both units if you do it correctly for an oversized brigade. Around 2,900 is about as fat as you can make it assuming you have enough weapons to work with. @The Soldier has much more precise numbers than me.  

'Merge Division' using the brigade carrying the weapon you want to use, aka, the spencers. 

Make sure the 'spencer' brigade is standing close to the consort brigade to prevent merging with another unit accidently. (It's happened, trust me). 

Enjoy!

[Captiva]

3 hours ago, Andre Bolkonsky said:

For example, I wanted to know what a bunch of Spencers looked like in one of the world's finest natural snipers nests ever formed. I was NOT disappointed

Ok, no teasing, just where is this snipers nest?

I'm guessing Devil's Den from the picture you posted?

Edited May 1, 2017 by Captiva

[Andre Bolkonsky]

8 minutes ago, Captiva said:

Ok, no teasing, just where is this snipers nest?

The Devil's Den is a natural formation of enormous boulders at the the base of Little Round Top and Big Round Top at Gettysburg. If you look at the picture I posted above, the Spencer Brigade highlighted in green is deployed there. 

It's actual position on the battlefield is seen most clearly here: 

At the base of the hill, on either side of the streams, is a natural formation of broken rocks and huge boulders. 

When you pack it with crack troops holding repeating rifles, it's terrifying to behold. 

[Hitorishizuka]

Everyone's already answered you but Spencer carrying skirmisher cavalry are some of the potentially deadliest units in the game. If you can get them set up properly on a floating flank, they can get in close and just pour in fire unanswered and rack up the kills.

In Grand Battles where conditions are suitable it's fairly common for me to see those brigades with 1k+ kills. In my current in-progress post Day 2 Chancellorsville CSA save I have a unit that's already racked up 2000+ kills. They're completely ridiculous. The only things comparable are combined divisions or 24pdr Howitzers in a defensive battle where the AI must charge you.

[Wright29]

4 hours ago, Andre Bolkonsky said:

I know a guy who knows a guy. They fell off the back of a truck. Don't ask so many questions. 

No, seriously, The Soldier explained. But it's not an 'exploit'; it is an undocumented feature of the game. There are, iirc, 400 Spencers and a consort brigade under the divisional commander which are set up to be combined back in Camp. 

On the other side of the field, there is also a Henry Brigade built in exactly the same manner. 

I enjoy this 'undocumented feature' in small doses because it allows the player, if he wishes to, enjoy a bit of 'what if' to the game. 

For example, I wanted to know what a bunch of Spencers looked like in one of the world's finest natural snipers nests ever formed. I was NOT disappointed. 

This is why the Devs don't let us have nice things! Or more like why they make us kill our boys assaulting trenches. 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

2 hours ago, Hitorishizuka said:

Everyone's already answered you but Spencer carrying skirmisher cavalry are some of the potentially deadliest units in the game. If you can get them set up properly on a floating flank, they can get in close and just pour in fire unanswered and rack up the kills.

In Grand Battles where conditions are suitable it's fairly common for me to see those brigades with 1k+ kills. In my current in-progress post Day 2 Chancellorsville CSA save I have a unit that's already racked up 2000+ kills. They're completely ridiculous. The only things comparable are combined divisions or 24pdr Howitzers in a defensive battle where the AI must charge you.

Hiro loves his cavalry. Seriously. Ask anyone. The first post I ever remember reading on this forum was Hiro's Ode to Cavalry. 

But I feel the need to mention there is a difference between Spencer Rifles and Spencer Carbines. The first is an infantry weapon, the second a skirmiser/cavalry weapon. Just so we make sure we're comparing apples to apples. 

[Hitorishizuka]

Just now, Andre Bolkonsky said:

Hiro loves his cavalry. Seriously. Ask anyone. The first post I ever remember reading on this forum was Hiro's Ode to Cavalry. 

But I feel the need to mention there is a difference between Spencer Rifles and Spencer Carbines. The first is an infantry weapon, the second a skirmiser/cavalry weapon. Just so we make sure we're comparing apples to apples. 

Yes, true, sorry for any imprecision. Spencer Carbines are amazing, Spencer Rifles are probably ignorable as they're a little rare and you'll have issues putting together enough for even a small brigade and it's questionable whether it's even worth it.

(Although, uh, speaking of name imprecision...)

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Just now, Hitorishizuka said:

Yes, true, sorry for any imprecision. Spencer Carbines are amazing, Spencer Rifles are probably ignorable as they're a little rare and you'll have issues putting together enough for even a small brigade and it's questionable whether it's even worth it.

(Although, uh, speaking of name imprecision...)

For the record, as documented above. Spencer Rifles are totally worth it. As long as you don't mind having to engineer a divisional brigade to wield them. 

[Mr. Mercanto]

I like to place my Spencer brigade on the moon. 





Their aim is really good.

[Hitorishizuka]

On 5/1/2017 at 6:20 PM, Andre Bolkonsky said:

For the record, as documented above. Spencer Rifles are totally worth it. As long as you don't mind having to engineer a divisional brigade to wield them. 

I'd probably want to field Henries if I could if I was using a repeater rifle on infantry, but either way IME the conditions are a little trickier to engineer for optimal performance. Most times they'll do better/as good with regular rifles.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Hitorishizuka

[Bobby Fiasco]

On 5/1/2017 at 9:15 PM, Hitorishizuka said:

I'd probably want to field Henries if you could if you if I was using a repeater rifle on infantry, but either way IME the conditions are a little trickier to engineer for optimal performance. Most times they'll do better/as good with regular rifles.

Respectfully disagree! I just tried the divisional brigade with 1,500 Spencers, and they were death-dealers. Was less impressed with Spencer cavalry, actually, with the micromanaging they require as cavalry. Also, the AI seemed to single them out for punishment. An enemy brigade being flanked turned away from a much larger infantry brigade to pound my cav.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Bobby Fiasco

[Pong]

I found Spencer "Rifle" and all other kinds of inf repeaters, are only better than top tier rifle when enemy is completly in open field.

 

You might micro to make this condition, but in pitched battle it's not that practical, generally. But I found that in Gettysburg roundtop as Feds and place spencer arm inf brigade...Lovely. Lovely.

 

But most of times, Richmond, 61 are better. Maybe Hapers ferry , too.

[Hitorishizuka]

3 hours ago, Bobby Fiasco said:

Respectfully disagree! I just tried the divisional brigade with 1,500 Spencers, and they were death-dealers. Was less impressed with Spencer cavalry, actually, with the micromanaging they require as cavalry. Also, the AI seemed to single them out for punishment. An enemy brigade being flanked turned away from a much larger infantry brigade to pound my cav.

Brigades will almost always turn to target the nearest enemy brigade. You can easily use this to your advantage, this is actually an important feature of using Spencer cavalry, because you go in and get them to start turning, which then means they take flank shots from your mainline while your cavalry have already retreated.

[Bobby Fiasco]

On 5/1/2017 at 11:44 AM, The Soldier said:

Spencer Carbines on Carbine Cavalry are monstrously good.  You won't be facing Spencers if you have other less-well equipped cavalry, though if the enemy spawns with Spencers I take that as an invitation to give more Spencers to my men.

Whoa, I just tried this and it sure was effective! One unit of 400-ish basically caved in an entire attacking enemy division. I had regular brigades stopping them in a line and the Spencers systematically hitting the flank of each enemy unit and their supporting artillery. Broke and threw them all back quite handily!

[vren55]

On 5/1/2017 at 6:19 PM, Hitorishizuka said:

Yes, true, sorry for any imprecision. Spencer Carbines are amazing, Spencer Rifles are probably ignorable as they're a little rare and you'll have issues putting together enough for even a small brigade and it's questionable whether it's even worth it.

 

Diiiittoooo. I have a brigade and while they don't have monstrous levels of kills (mainly b/c I suck at micro), they always do respectably well. 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Which, of course, is why many players use the cruel and Machiavellian trick of completely wiping out the Lighting Brigade at the opening of Chickamauga, ensuring it dies to the man, just so you can loot the field of the Spencer motherload they carry around with them.