Teleportation - a few thoughts

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Yes, there's a miscellaneous amount of mechanics that need addressing.

We have no idea how Conquest will be given the devs still thinking about the hostility stuff. While the 46 hours seem benefic at first I do not think they worked well and driven ( same as full teleports ) to a "road to arenas".

I still see the whole new open world as a return to proper screening action. 30 minutes cooldown, no teleports, and ( for good or bad ) no exit to port for BOTH nations, so the more responsability to screening fleets.

After all you cannot have ships everywhere despite being able to TP to nation ports. A clan ( gameplay acting Station / Navy wing ) will be able to plan and cover accordingly but so will a decided attacker.

 

[Cmdr RideZ]

2 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

"extreme" ganking, such as attacking a lone ship in a group of 5, yes that should very much be punished in my opinion, especially if it's in national friendly waters.
However, "fair" battles should not be punished. But where to draw the line?

If devs stay with their opinion, that this game is not meant to be fair.  They do not care about this subject, which would be sad in the end. It would be more EVE like, and they talk lot about EVE, so it can be that they make a copy of it.

If you think about 1vs5 gank vs wrecking a PB fleet.  1vs5 does not really sound that bad to me.  It can be that we have to choose the lesser evil.  Also, none asked anyone to sail alone in their Indiaman, full of most expensive stuff that you can find in Naval Action.  So people are actually taking this risk because they want to take it.

Revenge gank is something where you give pretty much no change for the fleet that gets ganked.  Guys in this battle, pop out and they are in middle of a very big enemy fleet.  This is the worst kind of scenario to build in any game if asked from me.  This is where I would draw the line...  You do not throw players in battles without giving them a change to react.

They could simply spawn players to areas where there are no enemies nearby, or something similar.  Include a short 2 second invisibility so that they have enough time to raise their sails.  This could turn in to a hunt instead of revenge gank.

[Cmdr RideZ]

39 minutes ago, azu said:

i don't think you know what you asking for because i have tried it back before the teleport was introduced. when rdnn and rus attacked panama we had our 1 rate fleet being attack by 15 to 20 Constitutions and after we killed them they wound all be waiting for us outside the battle to drag us in again, they keep doing this 4 or 5 times and they had no chance of winning but i guess they had fun wasting our time. what should have been a 15 minute sail became 2 hours of killing noobs   

That is called OW PvP.  What if the enemy could bring there 10 times bigger force of 1st rates to revenge gank you?  If you had 25x 1st rates, they would have 250x 1st rates?  And you know what? These guys may wait you outside 1 hour, if you are somehow able to escape and you wait a bit more before exiting to OW, they are still there after two hours.

I do think I know the subject pretty well.

[azu]

1 minute ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

That is called OW PvP.  What if the enemy could bring there 10 times bigger force of 1st rates to revenge gank you?  If you had 25x 1st rates, they would have 250x 1st rates?  And you know what? These guys may wait you outside 1 hour, if you are somehow able to escape and you wait a bit more before exiting to OW, they are still there after two hours.

I do think I know the subject pretty well.

we had 25 first rates so i sure we could handle it because of the limit on how many can be in battle at one time. and maybe you can ague that the first 2 battles was pvp but after that they knew they wound not win or even kill a single first rate. to be fair they did kill 1 first rate in the last battle by ramming it all 20 of them i believe that's why leaks by ramming was removed from the game.

now ganking outside a enemy capital is difference because it hurts new players and with the teleport or another mechanic to safe the ganking groups there is no way to stop them or even fight them, we have seen how it works out the last couple of months and it has been a ganking paradise with no risk what so ever. i have spend hours outside KPR just playing around killing every lone ship i could fine last at night and i only times i lost my ship was when i got to greedy. i diden even teleport away because i knew no one would be waiting for me outside the battle. tbh i liked it more when there was risk in going there                  

[Vernon Merrill]

Hopefully, thats what screeners do....   and there will probably be plenty of pvp to kill the time....

[Jeheil]

So firstly excellent post Liqui and one that has all sorts of sides to it. I agree with the most of it.

General TP'ing should be a balance between get people out on the water and making the game playable. So national TP I support. Coz even a dedicated nut like me cannot budget 3 hours transit time either side of 'the thing I am doing'. We do not need a modern city commute simulator.

The hardest nut to crack is the 'post battle' screen.

So my position is one from, fair fights are a coincidence. Other than a PB or arena based event, it is unlikely equal composition of ships will meet. Indeed you should always try to pick an unfair fight (from a military perspective).

I also think the notion that you know enemies are in your waters and you want to attack them is totally valid (If you want to call this a revenge fleet then fine...but for me its exactly what you should do, one or some of yours have been attacked, you shall go and biff the enemies).

One way to resolve this is you can always enter a battle until some threshold is met 25?? ships per side (best in first dressed) or some BR limiter for fairness. This has proven unpopular (not that that is always a measure of good).

The old sit in post battle screen for an hour or log-off is also pants. As those outside have a terribly boring time. So I think there needs to be a limit on how long you can pause between the end of an instanced battle and a return to the game.

We surely don't want to 'make players have to log off and stop playing the game' to be any answer to anything.

All of this suggests you should be turfed into the OW relatively quickly after a battles end.

The problem I have with this is LIFE, in principle, you should have to fight your way back to your own waters, however lets say you and your relatively intact fleet, beat off the first attackers, then the second, then the third....well thats 4-5 hours...at some point there should be some tip of the hat to the fact we need to sleep, eat, poop and pretend to love our partners more than gaming.

Thus (and TL;DR)  perhaps a compromise might be, you can exit to friendly port on your ?? third ?? consecutive battle screen ?? in a single session (ie third since you logged on).

BTW, this is a great discussion, lets keep it so and avoid other shenanigans.

 

 

[CatSwift]

No more Battleresultscreen nor teleport to port after battle 

this would not be an issue if they changed it back so the port flips at the end of the port battle.  This provides extra incentive for the players to duke it out, as it leaves the loser with having to deal with whatever's outside; might as well give it your all and fight to the death while in the PB.

 

In general though, they need to quit this duality of thinking about TPs and come up with something consistent.  Either they're bad and they should all go away, or allow them in all instances (between any outpost, at the end of the battle, and tow to nearest port) but give them a shared 4 hour cooldown.

[azu]

2 hours ago, Jeheil said:

So firstly excellent post Liqui and one that has all sorts of sides to it. I agree with the most of it.

General TP'ing should be a balance between get people out on the water and making the game playable. So national TP I support. Coz even a dedicated nut like me cannot budget 3 hours transit time either side of 'the thing I am doing'. We do not need a modern city commute simulator.

The hardest nut to crack is the 'post battle' screen.

So my position is one from, fair fights are a coincidence. Other than a PB or arena based event, it is unlikely equal composition of ships will meet. Indeed you should always try to pick an unfair fight (from a military perspective).

I also think the notion that you know enemies are in your waters and you want to attack them is totally valid (If you want to call this a revenge fleet then fine...but for me its exactly what you should do, one or some of yours have been attacked, you shall go and biff the enemies).

One way to resolve this is you can always enter a battle until some threshold is met 25?? ships per side (best in first dressed) or some BR limiter for fairness. This has proven unpopular (not that that is always a measure of good).

The old sit in post battle screen for an hour or log-off is also pants. As those outside have a terribly boring time. So I think there needs to be a limit on how long you can pause between the end of an instanced battle and a return to the game.

We surely don't want to 'make players have to log off and stop playing the game' to be any answer to anything.

All of this suggests you should be turfed into the OW relatively quickly after a battles end.

The problem I have with this is LIFE, in principle, you should have to fight your way back to your own waters, however lets say you and your relatively intact fleet, beat off the first attackers, then the second, then the third....well thats 4-5 hours...at some point there should be some tip of the hat to the fact we need to sleep, eat, poop and pretend to love our partners more than gaming.

Thus (and TL;DR)  perhaps a compromise might be, you can exit to friendly port on your ?? third ?? consecutive battle screen ?? in a single session (ie third since you logged on).

BTW, this is a great discussion, lets keep it so and avoid other shenanigans.

 

 

in the Bermuda example that's 3 hours to get there, 1.5 hours of port battle and 3 screening battles that can last 1.5 hours and 3 hours sail back so 12 hours in game for failed port assault. i would say give the screening fleet 1 attempt if any, remember they also have the chance to screen before the port battle. something like if you get pulled in battle within 30 minutes after a port battle and you win or get away you get to go back to your capital. 

[TommyShelby]

2 hours ago, Jeheil said:

The problem I have with this is LIFE, in principle, you should have to fight your way back to your own waters, however lets say you and your relatively intact fleet, beat off the first attackers, then the second, then the third....well thats 4-5 hours...at some point there should be some tip of the hat to the fact we need to sleep, eat, poop and pretend to love our partners more than gaming.

Thus (and TL;DR)  perhaps a compromise might be, you can exit to friendly port on your ?? third ?? consecutive battle screen ?? in a single session (ie third since you logged on).

BTW, this is a great discussion, lets keep it so and avoid other shenanigans.

Third consecutive battle screen could easily be 3+ hours after your started your session (30 minutes looking for fight, 1 hour for 1st battle, 1 hour for 2nd battle, 1 hour for 3rd battle).
Isn't that a bit much? If this is the way the game is going to be i'll only be able to play in weekends because in the weekdays i have something like 2 hours to play games. Same for a bunch of other players. 

 

2 hours ago, Jeheil said:

The hardest nut to crack is the 'post battle' screen.

So my position is one from, fair fights are a coincidence. Other than a PB or arena based event, it is unlikely equal composition of ships will meet. Indeed you should always try to pick an unfair fight (from a military perspective).

I also think the notion that you know enemies are in your waters and you want to attack them is totally valid (If you want to call this a revenge fleet then fine...but for me its exactly what you should do, one or some of yours have been attacked, you shall go and biff the enemies).

The old sit in post battle screen for an hour or log-off is also pants. As those outside have a terribly boring time. So I think there needs to be a limit on how long you can pause between the end of an instanced battle and a return to the game.

Why is it that Signalling Perk isn't a good enough compromise? If a newbie gets attacked by gank fleet he can call for help. Sure, you cannot "countergank" the gank fleet and you cannot "revenge fleet" gank them, however you can indeed get a good fight and maybe save your newbie! 

If someone who isn't a newbie gets "ganked" then he made a mistake on the OW right? (I make them too sometimes) Most of the time if you know your ship and aren't sailing around in a SoL or a very slow frigate, you can get away from the gank fleets. 

Perhaps make Signalling Perk something that all players Rank 5 and lower has? (So someone new to the game has it without having to spend perk points on it.) 

 

6 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

If you think about 1vs5 gank vs wrecking a PB fleet.  1vs5 does not really sound that bad to me.  It can be that we have to choose the lesser evil.  Also, none asked anyone to sail alone in their Indiaman, full of most expensive stuff that you can find in Naval Action.  So people are actually taking this risk because they want to take it.

Revenge gank is something where you give pretty much no change for the fleet that gets ganked.  Guys in this battle, pop out and they are in middle of a very big enemy fleet.  This is the worst kind of scenario to build in any game if asked from me.  This is where I would draw the line...  You do not throw players in battles without giving them a change to react.

Agreed, 1v5 sucks but if you end up in a 1v5 you, usually, made a mistake. 
However, if you kill someone in a 1v1 and then 5 of their buddies are waiting for you outside, well. You pretty much can't do anything to avoid that gank. And that is when ganking sucks ass. 
I don't miss Revenge Fleets and Battle Screen camping at all. The "TP to friendly port" was the best thing done for those with 1-2 hours game sessions. (IE, probably like 80% of the community.) 

[azu]

12 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

Third consecutive battle screen could easily be 3+ hours after your started your session (30 minutes looking for fight, 1 hour for 1st battle, 1 hour for 2nd battle, 1 hour for 3rd battle).
Isn't that a bit much? If this is the way the game is going to be i'll only be able to play in weekends because in the weekdays i have something like 2 hours to play games. Same for a bunch of other players. 

 

Why is it that Signalling Perk isn't a good enough compromise? If a newbie gets attacked by gank fleet he can call for help. Sure, you cannot "countergank" the gank fleet and you cannot "revenge fleet" gank them, however you can indeed get a good fight and maybe save your newbie! 

If someone who isn't a newbie gets "ganked" then he made a mistake on the OW right? (I make them too sometimes) Most of the time if you know your ship and aren't sailing around in a SoL or a very slow frigate, you can get away from the gank fleets. 

Perhaps make Signalling Perk something that all players Rank 5 and lower has? (So someone new to the game has it without having to spend perk points on it.) 

 

Agreed, 1v5 sucks but if you end up in a 1v5 you, usually, made a mistake. 
However, if you kill someone in a 1v1 and then 5 of their buddies are waiting for you outside, well. You pretty much can't do anything to avoid that gank. And that is when ganking sucks ass. 
I don't miss Revenge Fleets and Battle Screen camping at all. The "TP to friendly port" was the best thing done for those with 1-2 hours game sessions. (IE, probably like 80% of the community.) 

why should gankers be protected from being ganked them self and how is one gank better then the other ?

[Sureshot]

23 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

Agreed, 1v5 sucks but if you end up in a 1v5 you, usually, made a mistake. 
However, if you kill someone in a 1v1 and then 5 of their buddies are waiting for you outside, well. You pretty much can't do anything to avoid that gank. And that is when ganking sucks ass. 
I don't miss Revenge Fleets and Battle Screen camping at all. The "TP to friendly port" was the best thing done for those with 1-2 hours game sessions. (IE, probably like 80% of the community.) 

Agreed with everything you said. But this 100% is how I feel as well.

I fail to understand how other people don't see how revenge fleets with the current mechanics are bad for the game. They fail to see the reason WHY revenge fleets are bad for the game is BECAUSE of the mechanics that are in game. If you escape in the battle instance you don't actually escape, you are just teleported back to where you were when you got tagged so it's almost the same thing as griefing but not. Revenge fleets aren't a bad thing they are bad because of the mechanics. 

Again It is much different if you worked hard to earn a revenge sink or capture than just having it handed to you because the after battle mechanics  make it easy as 1,2,3.         NA should start handing out trophy's for revenge fleets since right now they are giving them free kills/captures that takes 0 effort.  

 

[Sureshot]

7 minutes ago, azu said:

why should gankers be protected from being ganked them self and how is one gank better then the other ?

Again different scenario, when the original gankers or attackers found the target they wanted they had to work for it and catch them in the open world. BUT with you coming out of the battle right at the same location the battle started and not where it ended the revenge fleet doesn't have to give any effort and just surrounds the enemy's location. 

So when you gank someone on the open world you have to work for it and catch them, when you are a revenge fleet you have to give 0 effort, You pretty much just have the free kill handed to you without even having to chase the enemy and catch them. Chances are if you got ganked on the open world you did something wrong but being ganked by a revenge fleet you have a 0% chance of avoiding it.

[azu]

Just now, Sureshot said:

Again different scenario, when the original gankers or attackers found the target they wanted they had to work for it and catch them in the open world. BUT with you coming out of the battle right at the same location the battle started and not where it ended the revenge fleet doesn't have to give any effort and just surrounds the enemy's location. 

So when you gank someone on the open world you have to work for it and catch them, when you are a revenge fleet you have to give 0 effort, You pretty much just have the free kill handed to you without even having to chase the enemy and catch them. Chances are if you got ganked on the open world you did something wrong but being ganked by a revenge fleet you have a 0% chance of avoiding it.

only if the gankers attack someone close to there capital if they are far away ppl wont be bothered to sail there because the battle could be over by the time they get there  

[Jeheil]

So Bermuda is a 'special' case. Nobody attacks Bermuda without the expectation of a 'lonnnng' session. I like Bermuda, its daft, its the 'endboss' of Naval Action.

Tommy I like the signalling perk too...other than its a perk...rather than just a default behavior...I don't like it as a perk, when I engage someone I should know the RoE.

Now maybe 3 exit battles is too many, maybe on the second.

But I have been on the water alot...and I don't ever recall being in 3 consecutive 90 minutes ones.

I once got tagged 6 times between Bonnacca and Ruatan, you know how you are you pirate @$#$#, I had a faster ship, but there were 3 of them...so they would try to box me in. To be honest by about the 4th tag, it felt like griefing.

[Sureshot]

5 minutes ago, azu said:

only if the gankers attack someone close to there capital if they are far away ppl wont be bothered to sail there because the battle could be over by the time they get there  

Not true mate, I've played this game since 2014 and since the day open world was released and I can tell you people don't take well to a loss even if the battle was even BR. You can sail half the map in an hour and a half with the compressed open world speeds which is how long a battle can last. If the revenge fleet can make it before battle ends they will sail to it, I've seen it many, many times. 

[Jeheil]

2 minutes ago, Sureshot said:

Not true mate, I've played this game since 2014 and since the day open world was released and I can tell you people don't take well to a loss even if the battle was even BR. You can sail half the map in an hour and a half with the compressed open world speeds which is how long a battle can last. If the revenge fleet can make it before battle ends they will sail to it, I've seen it many, many times. 

I wonder if, out of the box, ill formed thought process, we should go in the EXACT opposite direction and every battle should be advertised on the map. So you can join go to them, make them all a honey trap. I think planetside did this....but yeh show BR:BR/Nation:Nation/Current Ship Loss in Battle/Time since began and instead of how do we avoid them....lets get us all there in a massive GTF brawl.

Fair fights are a coincidence....(you need PB or Arena for this) instead...lets just have LOTS of REALLY BIG FIGHTS.

This idea could be so bad I can see it happening !

[azu]

1 minute ago, Sureshot said:

Not true mate, I've played this game since 2014 and since the day open world was released and I can tell you people don't take well to a loss even if the battle was even BR. You can sail half the map in an hour and a half with the compressed open world speeds which is how long a battle can last. If the revenge fleet can make it before battle ends they will sail to it, I've seen it many, many times. 

yea depending on what ships you use but most ganks take a lot less then one and half hours. and i can only speak for my self and the ppl i know and we wont sail more then 10-15 minutes. i have tried getting revenge ganked as well but i did not find it odd because i was always close to the enemy capital in my mind it only fair i was after all in enemy waters looking for trouble and it found me.         

[azu]

26 minutes ago, Jeheil said:

So Bermuda is a 'special' case. Nobody attacks Bermuda without the expectation of a 'lonnnng' session. I like Bermuda, its daft, its the 'endboss' of Naval Action.

Tommy I like the signalling perk too...other than its a perk...rather than just a default behavior...I don't like it as a perk, when I engage someone I should know the RoE.

Now maybe 3 exit battles is too many, maybe on the second.

But I have been on the water alot...and I don't ever recall being in 3 consecutive 90 minutes ones.

I once got tagged 6 times between Bonnacca and Ruatan, you know how you are you pirate @$#$#, I had a faster ship, but there were 3 of them...so they would try to box me in. To be honest by about the 4th tag, it felt like griefing.

bermuda is special and there is certain prestige in taking it =) but the 7 and half hours is a lot of time for most players already. again im only speaking for rdnn/rus to my knowledge we usually try to kill you as fast as we can, but we have tried being kept in battles for no other reason then having our time wasted for hours     

[Sir Texas Sir]

7 hours ago, Intrepido said:

Lets think a bit guys.

We go to attack a port, lets say 25 ships for the PB and another 15 as screeners. Are you telling me that the screeners are going to wait 105 minutes to scort the PB fleet back to homewaters after the battle?

I keep hearing folks mention port battles and they forget that you should have your own screeners with you to and some of the port battle mechanics have changed so there might be more brawling and ships getting sunked in them.  It's going to be interesting but we will see.

6 hours ago, Sir Joseph Blaine said:

Hopefully, thats what screeners do....   and there will probably be plenty of pvp to kill the time....

I would if that was my job and there should be fights out side that will keep them busy.

[Cmdr RideZ]

Ganking is not just bad, it is good as well.  How boring it would be to sail a trader if there would not be even a change that someone will gank you?

[Jeheil]

2 hours ago, azu said:

bermuda is special and there is certain prestige in taking it =) but the 7 and half hours is a lot of time for most players already. again im only speaking for rdnn/rus to my knowledge we usually try to kill you as fast as we can, but we have tried being kept in battles for no other reason then having our time wasted for hours     

I agree. I think with Bermuda now it can only result in two things...and it will only take half as much time...as either way its a one way trip !!

Win and port up.

Lose and SINK !

There is probably no other outcome.

[Bartholomew.E.Dogg]

I don't understand the apparent obsession with the concept of the "fair fight". This is not a duelling game, as far as I am aware it is supposed to be an age of sail experience at a time of hostility between nations/factions. In this context a fair fight in open world should be a rarity that occurs by accident rather than design. Any commander wishing to succeed against an enemy would try to have a tactical advantage by outnumbering or outgunning the enemy. A weaker party would not neccessarily stand and fight but make a run for it. 

[Fargo]

36 minutes ago, Bartholomew.E.Dogg said:

I don't understand the apparent obsession with the concept of the "fair fight".

Its not about fair fights, but the "abuse" of time compression.

Finding good compromises for transitions in and out of real time battles is probably on of the most difficult problems in NA. I think we absolutely need teleports after battle, either to friendly port or to random spawns in the OW. Revenge ganks are neither realistic, nor fun gamplaywise, so whats the point to allow it? Its not even fun for the revengegankers, having to wait up to 1hour+ infront of a battle. It sounds weird that teleports are most realistic here, but thats how it is.

[Bartholomew.E.Dogg]

But why should a defeated enemy get a free ticket home?   In the case of a fleet or port battle any surviving enemy ships should take their chances in fleeing. If they successfully evade any pursuers they can always log out in OW and continue their journey home next session. As for revenge gankers, noone is forced to wait 1 hour plus outside of battle - they choose to.

 

[Cmdr RideZ]

15 minutes ago, Bartholomew.E.Dogg said:

But why should a defeated enemy get a free ticket home?

I actually agree, that maybe teleport back to home is a bit too much.  To some empty area nearby could be a good option.

BRS was also pretty important.  You were able to sync real life with the game.  Now this will be removed. Gank fleet is after you and you have a biological need.  New mechanisms are not really providing you are break which is bad for sure.  Either you wet your chair or lose your ship.  This is simply bad game design.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Cmdr RideZ