Medicine, working as intended?

[Slaithium]

I dont know about everyone else. But it does not seem medicine is working.. When I finish a battle, to when I go to army view, I do no see a change in number of soldiers in a particular unit. Even over several turns. Is there a place/tab I can go to see where/how many of my guys are healed or recovered. Also is it the percent of the starting unit number or the number of deaths does the calculation apply?

If the units restore over time, there should be a wounded pool with a time stamp. If that makes sense.

The same is true for the other Career Buffs, only on that is clear and doing as intended as far as I can tell is Army Organization, Recon, and Economy. Politics, Medicine, Logistics, and Training can not see a actual subtraction or addition to the according buffs.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

45 minutes ago, Slaithium said:

I dont know about everyone else. But it does not seem medicine is working.. When I finish a battle, to when I go to army view, I do no see a change in number of soldiers in a particular unit. Even over several turns. Is there a place/tab I can go to see where/how many of my guys are healed or recovered. Also is it the percent of the starting unit number or the number of deaths does the calculation apply?

If the units restore over time, there should be a wounded pool with a time stamp. If that makes sense.

The same is true for the other Career Buffs, only on that is clear and doing as intended as far as I can tell is Army Organization, Recon, and Economy. Politics, Medicine, Logistics, and Training can not see a actual subtraction or addition to the according buffs.

 

 

The number of units a particular brigade LOST during the engagement is mulplied by the percent granted by MEDICINE, that many men are returned to the unit before it appears in Camp. 

If brigade of 2,500 men loses 1,000 men and have 10% in medicing, you get back 100 men, not 250.  

[Slaithium]

But the numbers dont change from battle result to army camp. So cant really tell

[Aetius]

See 43:17 in the following video - note the survivor numbers on my units (1/1 Rifle, etc):

Now look at 1:34 in the camp video after that battle:

You'll see that each of my units has more men in camp than they had when the battle ended. The numbers are small, because I took very few casualties and the units started small. Nonetheless I regained ... 42 men? I had Medicine level of 2, which is 4% recovery. 1/1 Rifle started the battle with 1100 men, and ended with 840, for a casualty total of 260. 260 * 0.04 = 10 men, but he only regained 6, which implies that Legendary has some kind of penalty to Medicine or Medicine level 2 is really 2% recovery.

[Zwerty99]

Regardless, medicine needs a buff. Simply not worth the investment ATM unless you go artillerty officer from the start. 

[Aetius]

It gets much stronger as the war goes on. At high levels, you're getting back 1-2k men in a scenario where you take 10k casualties. That's pretty powerful, considering they are all veterans and keep their weapons - essentially the equivalent of saving a brigade. I'm pretty sure it doesn't need a buff, but rather some of the other options need to be buffed to be more attractive instead.

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Training and Medicine, used together, are key for a large veteran army. 

Level training first so you can buy veterans, level medicine second you don't have to keep buying veterans. Plus enough AO to keep enough troops on the field. 

[Koro]

Between Fredericksburg, stones river and Chancellorsville I lost about 90.000 union troops. Having 18.000 returning in full and with experience is about twice the reward for winning Fredericksburg in the first place. That seems worth it to me. Especially as the rewards are getting smaller towards the end of the war. 

[Jamesk2]

Yeah Medicine late game is OP, even when compared to Politics which most people are maxing first. With Medicine you're getting extra manpower, extra EXP and extra gun - like a combination of Training + Politics or Training + a little Politics + Economy.

[Zwerty99]

Fair enough, I just want to see less casualties overall. Medicine seemed a logical place to start but I see your arguments.

[Koro]

8 hours ago, Jamesk2 said:

Yeah Medicine late game is OP, even when compared to Politics which most people are maxing first. With Medicine you're getting extra manpower, extra EXP and extra gun - like a combination of Training + Politics or Training + a little Politics + Economy.

The only issue I have with my medicine is that you have to take casualties for it to have a purpose, and generally, my goal is not to :P. Late game, it just becomes impossible to not take heavy losses, so yeah, that's where it gets my thumbs up.

[GeneralPITA]

4 hours ago, Koro said:

The only issue I have with my medicine is that you have to take casualties for it to have a purpose, and generally, my goal is not to :P. Late game, it just becomes impossible to not take heavy losses, so yeah, that's where it gets my thumbs up.

Agree that medicine is a late game skill....indispensable really. I didn't use medicine in v.68 but  a half dozen play throughs have taught me otherwise. 

[Wandering1]

Would argue that medicine is much more useful if you're buying expensive gear, instead of always using the basic gear.

Saving a Fayetteville or a 24 pdr from medicine is a lot more handy than saving Farmers or 6 pdrs. 

Also a lot more noticeable if you're running max-size armies (as in putting at least 2000 men in each infantry brigade) than if you're running smaller armies, if only because you have lots of spare manpower for min-size armies rather than max size armies.

Which actually sort of begs the question as a small border case that I didn't consider until now: if you get drops from 'rescues', are those 'rescues' immediately reused to equip infantry saved from medicine, or do they essentially become duplicates? 

Edited January 30, 2017 by Wandering1

[Koro]

15 minutes ago, Wandering1 said:

Would argue that medicine is much more useful if you're buying expensive gear, instead of always using the basic gear.

Saving a Fayetteville or a 24 pdr from medicine is a lot more handy than saving Farmers or 6 pdrs. 

Also a lot more noticeable if you're running max-size armies (as in putting at least 2000 men in each infantry brigade) than if you're running smaller armies, if only because you have lots of spare manpower for min-size armies rather than max size armies.

Which actually sort of begs the question as a small border case that I didn't consider until now: if you get drops from 'rescues', are those 'rescues' immediately reused to equip infantry saved from medicine, or do they essentially become duplicates? 

Hadn't thought of that. They probably become duplicates. 

[Wandering1]

2 minutes ago, Koro said:

Hadn't thought of that. They probably become duplicates. 

It matters less for infantry rifles than it does for cannons, really. You lose more infantry rifles than you get back from rescuing and medicine combined, even if duplicates occurred. However, in the case of cannons, since it's based on the 25 men per 1 cannon, theoretically it's possible to have enough casualties to drop a cannon, but get one back through rescue and another back through medicine.

[GeneralPITA]

13 minutes ago, Wandering1 said:

It matters less for infantry rifles than it does for cannons, really. You lose more infantry rifles than you get back from rescuing and medicine combined, even if duplicates occurred. However, in the case of cannons, since it's based on the 25 men per 1 cannon, theoretically it's possible to have enough casualties to drop a cannon, but get one back through rescue and another back through medicine.

Kinda handy if you make 2 gun Whitworth brigades and allow them to take one small skirmisher volley per battle, grow your Whitworth arsenal. I'll try this when I get a chance.   

[Wandering1]

2 minutes ago, GeneralPITA said:

Kinda handy if you make 2 gun Whitworth brigades and allow them to take one small skirmisher volley per battle, grow your Whitworth arsenal. I'll try this when I get a chance.   

If the rescues are still rated at 50% of losses across all difficulties, the duplication would not allow you to grow your arsenal, but rather just expand your safety net for acceptable losses.

Simple example: 300 men (12 guns), lose 50 men (10 guns total). Rescues would amount to 1 gun, and medicine would bump you up one gun, so you have no net loss of guns. However, if you lose 75 men (9 guns total), Rescues would still amount to 1 gun (if we round down), and even at 20% medicine, would only duplicate 1 gun.

[GeneralPITA]

2 minutes ago, Wandering1 said:

If the rescues are still rated at 50% of losses across all difficulties, the duplication would not allow you to grow your arsenal, but rather just expand your safety net for acceptable losses.

Simple example: 300 men (12 guns), lose 50 men (10 guns total). Rescues would amount to 1 gun, and medicine would bump you up one gun, so you have no net loss of guns. However, if you lose 75 men (9 guns total), Rescues would still amount to 1 gun (if we round down), and even at 20% medicine, would only duplicate 1 gun.

Okay, then I'll start with a dozen guns, but it's hard to get more than 8 Whitworths as CSA. Maybe it's best to try it with 24pdrs.

[Wandering1]

56 minutes ago, GeneralPITA said:

Okay, then I'll start with a dozen guns, but it's hard to get more than 8 Whitworths as CSA. Maybe it's best to try it with 24pdrs.

I used 12 guns as an example, but it works with 8, due to losses not being relative to the total unit size for the examples being used here. Heck, it even works with 4 for a test case; still lose 50 men, see if you get any net loss of guns after the scenario.

[Slaithium]

Just would like a simplified screen so I can see all my stuff working or not. Also found it more effective during some battles to have lots of small brigades than large on where turning and moving in tight quarters. But that is just me.

[Hitorishizuka]

On 1/30/2017 at 2:03 PM, GeneralPITA said:

Okay, then I'll start with a dozen guns, but it's hard to get more than 8 Whitworths as CSA. Maybe it's best to try it with 24pdrs.

It might be interesting to try but honestly it's not like Whitworths are worth using unless you've completely run out of 24pdr Napoleon, 10pdr Ordnance, and 10pdr Tredegar.

[CaptainKanundrum]

One question:

How does Medicine work with units that have been completely wiped out?

[Slaithium]

2 hours ago, CaptainKanundrum said:

One question:

How does Medicine work with units that have been completely wiped out?

I would suspect that you would get nothing, because nothing remains for the effect to attach to.

[CaptainKanundrum]

1 hour ago, Slaithium said:

I would suspect that you would get nothing, because nothing remains for the effect to attach to.

Ahh that would be unfortunate, it feels like it goes against the flavour of what Medicine should do. You'd hope that Medicine might redistribute what you should have gotten to other brigades. 

Having a brigade wiped out is always bad, but it seems too powerful to go from getting about 200 men+guns back  (at lvl10 Med) to getting absolutely nothing.

 

[Slaithium]

I know right, but hopefully I am wrong. Again, that why I think there should be a more clear and distinct way of show how the Career Points are affecting the campaign. Parenthasis seems simple. 700 wound (70 recover) type thing. Course assuming 10% med.