Kickstarter ship packs poll (redux)

[Lord Vicious]

13 minutes ago, Prater said:

The crew of Fancy was 150 crew.  My bias and "uninformedness" has nothing to do about that.  That is what the sources say.  You know, bias works both ways.  Perhaps you are so biased you are attempting to inflate things?

Yeah thats why i quote    stuff instead make them up

 

also The fancy got almost 300 crew becouse 2 of the sloops that where in his fleet where abandon and put on fire so the crew joined the fancy 60+70

becouse i inflate things...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Every

 

Edited February 3, 2017 by Lord Vicious

[akd]

18 minutes ago, Lord Vicious said:

Yeah thats why i quote    stuff instead make them up

becouse i inflate things...

The source you just quoted says that Fancy had a crew possibly as small as 111.

Edited February 3, 2017 by akd

[OlavDeng2]

1 hour ago, Lord Vicious said:

 

Your approach is all but scientific, you make false assumption not backed by any source.

 (beside the fact you distort facts for boost your version, there is not a single source that claim that they stop to fight after the cannon exploded let alone that exploded at the start of the fight  , or that they shoot only once before surrender  ) So all false statements with no source purely for boost your biased anti pirate point of view.

Since we want to be scientific here, would you mind a source for all your statements as well? would be interested to read

[Prater]

The Indian account is slightly different than the pirate fan accounts you read on the internet.

https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.98678/2015.98678.History-Of-Aurangzibvol5#page/n289/mode/2up/search/Ganj-i-saWai

page 278

The convoy was returning from Mecca.  On approaching the Indian coast, the convoy dispersed.  The Ganj-i-Sawai was alone when it was attacked.  It was a trade/pilgrim ship.  It had 600 passengers.  It had 400 musket.  Where is the space for actual ship crew?

 

Anyway, as I said, the Fancy had at most 150 crew, and the point of this statement is, that they could not have possibly crewed 40 some cannons of heavy caliber.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Prater

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Did the pirates build that armed flagship ? Where was the shipyard ?

must bite my tongue and accept that Pirates never built anything of that size. Not even close.

No one here is writing a paper so no one has to cite sources unless one wishes to but I believe all of us do homework out of necessity or simple joy.

On the other hand, for gameplay sake, compromises can be made. If ever there's a Pirate Ship pack by all means include the captured ships that we know about with proper modifications we know about.

[Prater]

Fancy would be an interesting ship, doubt there are plans for it though.

[Powderhorn]

Pirates and Privateers of the Americas puts the original Charles II (later Fancy) at 30 guns.  When she was sold off, only 100 barrels of powder were taken from her.  Did she capture guns along the way?  Maybe.  Were swivels counted?  Probably.  Did she carry heavy guns?  As it was a "Private Frigate" in 1693...  I doubt she carried anything larger than 6's.  That's gut feeling though.  I'm not finding a copy of Joel H. Baer's Captain John Avery and the Anatomy of a Mutiny which is what Pirates and Privateers of the Americas cites, so until I find a copy of that book, I suspect my search is stymied for the moment.

[TommyShelby]

The biggest thing about including "pirate" ships would be that alot of people would probably buy the game just for those ships.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Just now, TommyShelby said:

The biggest thing about including "pirate" ships would be that alot of people would probably buy the game just for those ships.

No arguing there.

[maturin]

600 passengers?!

No wonder they lost. It's impossible to carry out a battle encumbered by so many noncombatants. Again, that's not a warship but a drunken wounded elephant.

Droits d'Homme (a much larger ship) carried far fewer men than that (soldiers and camp followers) and found it difficult to resist Indefatigable and her consort.

I'll resist wading into the tangled mass of strawmen, other than that.

[Prater]

14 minutes ago, Powderhorn said:

Pirates and Privateers of the Americas puts the original Charles II (later Fancy) at 30 guns.  When she was sold off, only 100 barrels of powder were taken from her.  Did she capture guns along the way?  Maybe.  Were swivels counted?  Probably.  Did she carry heavy guns?  As it was a "Private Frigate" in 1693...  I doubt she carried anything larger than 6's.  That's gut feeling though.  I'm not finding a copy of Joel H. Baer's Captain John Avery and the Anatomy of a Mutiny which is what Pirates and Privateers of the Americas cites, so until I find a copy of that book, I suspect my search is stymied for the moment.

Fancy was also at one point razeed.  6lbers aren't bad.  It isn't a ship meant to take on other frigates, but a nice privateer.  Well, for 1695 anyway.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Prater

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

1 minute ago, maturin said:

600 passengers?!

No wonder they lost. It's impossible to carry out a battle encumbered by so many noncombatants.

Same with the 70 guns portuguese man'owar. Was down to half guns with a ton of non combatants.

Still, who's going to pursue and model in a non-fantasy way a pirate ship pack ? Most of the models are run-of-the-mill builds, nothing fanciful.

[TommyShelby]

I know why many are against the whole "Pirate ship" thing. 
But afaik several of the "national" ships we have are over gunned and over crewed. So personally i wouldn't mind some "Pirate Ships" (Based on real ships but modified a bit to make them "cool pirate ships".) 
It would surely help bring in some of the "Jack Sparrow" types that we all know and love  (Money in da bank if you know what i mean lol) 

[Powderhorn]

Honestly, the Charles II could be a fine ship in any ship pack as our first Razee.  Seems she carried about 120 crew at her peak (150 per a broadside that insurers apparently distributed, as per Baer's "Bold Captain Avery in the Privy Council: Early Variants of a Broadside Ballad from the Pepys Collection").  Arm appropriately.  (Looks like you could man one broadside of 15 long 9's and still sail her, which I think everyone would be cool with.)

[Prater]

5 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

I know why many are against the whole "Pirate ship" thing. 
But afaik several of the "national" ships we have are over gunned and over crewed. So personally i wouldn't mind some "Pirate Ships" (Based on real ships but modified a bit to make them "cool pirate ships".) 
It would surely help bring in some of the "Jack Sparrow" types that we all know and love  (Money in da bank if you know what i mean lol) 

 

I don't think anyone is against pirate ships per say, as long as they are historical.  They aren't pirate ships afterall, but a ship that was captured.  But I for one would rather mostly see Napoleonic era ships.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Prater

[akd]

People would throw a fit if you put realistic "pirate ships" in the game.  Look at our precedent: a small 18pdr frigate designed to carry 6s on her weatherdecks gets "piratized" and now has 12s on her weatherdecks, retains excellent maneuverability and makes you better at boarding "because it's a pirate ship!"

[Lord Vicious]

3 hours ago, TommyShelby said:

I know why many are against the whole "Pirate ship" thing. 
But afaik several of the "national" ships we have are over gunned and over crewed. So personally i wouldn't mind some "Pirate Ships" (Based on real ships but modified a bit to make them "cool pirate ships".) 
It would surely help bring in some of the "Jack Sparrow" types that we all know and love  (Money in da bank if you know what i mean lol) 

Exactly, all this historical bullshit when 50% of ships in game have wood tickness of a firstrate and usually are up ganned by a lot.

 

and tbh even if we make the fancy or the queens ann, at best they can compete with  a frig like essex or trinco.

Look the video i posted they give a realistic view of how queen got razeed and augmented the cannons amount, sure they where all 9? 6? 4? pounders  for the sake of the game we can augment to 18-12-6 and  we have an up ganned ship that can max fight ships up to trinco.       Already a wappen conny or inger will have superiority.

 

How to balance? simple, many pirate ships where razeed, upganned and slave ships transformed, so very fast with many cannons, but not properly much  wood tickness since they not where think as vessels for fight military vessels.

 

So a good queens ann revenge with 44 cannons  should have roughly the armor of the essex and similar hp 5k? 6k ?  but faster something around 12,5 /13 , maybe with board bonus,  That will accomodate also future pirate gameplay  wich is supposed to be raids, and pirate on pirate enviroment. More oriented to ow pvp then pb.

So overall good speed good dps, not good wood tickness, board bonuses

 

3 hours ago, TommyShelby said:

The biggest thing about including "pirate" ships would be that alot of people would probably buy the game just for those ships.

A good sell point for devs and more healthy for the game since pirates got nothing for a year, while usa are over rapresented in game even over sweden france britain spain LOL

 

Again a multi pack with  more ships include a pirate one will sell more then just an usa one  i still wanna see the christiansted vii ?

 

3 hours ago, maturin said:

600 passengers?!

No wonder they lost. It's impossible to carry out a battle encumbered by so many noncombatants. Again, that's not a warship but a drunken wounded elephant.

Droits d'Homme (a much larger ship) carried far fewer men than that (soldiers and camp followers) and found it difficult to resist Indefatigable and her consort.

I'll resist wading into the tangled mass of strawmen, other than that.

still a 1600 ton ship with 80 cannons who lost to a razeed frig with 50  with 1/3 of its crew   

 

5 hours ago, OlavDeng2 said:

Since we want to be scientific here, would you mind a source for all your statements as well? would be interested to read

just google henry avery and read 10 different source and none back maturin facts   they all pretty similar tbh. 

 

Or get your hand on the book general history of piracy 

 

5 hours ago, OlavDeng2 said:

Since we want to be scientific here, would you mind a source for all your statements as well? would be interested to read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Every

http://www.goldenageofpiracy.org/

http://www.qaronline.org/

 

all of this books are readable from the site or you can find the pdf   have a nice reading time (suggest you to start with http://www.history-archive.org/golden-age-of-piracy/general-history-of-the-pirates-2nd-ed-vol-I-introduction.php  )

Ellms, C. (1837). The Pirates Own Book, or, Authentic Narratives of the Lives, Exploits and Executions of the Most Celebrated Sea Robbers. Maine: Sanborn & Carter.

Pyle, H. (1921). Book of Pirates. New York, Harper & Brothers.

Whymper, F. (1877). The Sea: Its Stirring Story of Adventure, Peril & Heroism. (Vol. 3). London: Cassell, Petter & Galpin.

Johnson, C., & Fraser, C. L. (1922). Pirates..the Lives and Adventures of Sundry Notorious Pirates. New York: R.M. McBride and Company.

Defoe, D. (1720). The King of Pirates: Being an Account of the Famous Enterprises of Captain Henry Every. London:

Johnson, C. (1724). A General History of the Pyrates (2nd Edition, Volume I). London, Great Britain: T. Warner.

Johnson, C. (1724). General History of the Pyrates (2nd Edition Volume I) - Chapter I, Of Captain Avery and his Crew. London, Great Britain: T. Warner.

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2017 by Lord Vicious

[Powderhorn]

I'm not sure if this is intentional or not, but all your links for Avery/Every are the same website, excepting the Wikipedia one where the details of the ships are all "citation needed" statements.

 

The armament of the QAR is known:

"Seventeen of twenty-five of the identified cannons on the QAR site [are 6 pounders]. The remaining armament includes four 4-pounders, two 1-pounders, one ½- pounder and a small caliber brass swivel gun (Henry 2009)."

http://dncr-qar.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/documents/files/QAR-B-09-01.pdf

http://dncr-qar.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/documents/files/QAR-B-11-01.pdf

[Fluffy Fishy]

3 hours ago, Intrepido said:

My proposal is a kickstarter pack of ships of several nationalities which also fills some gaps or missing ships at some ranks.

An example:

Third rate: Admiraal de Ruyter (VP), Montañes (SP), Temerarie (FR)

Heavy Frigate: Venus (SWE).

Frigate: Xebec (Ottoman Empire/ Pirates/ SP) 

Ottoman ships are pretty horrible, especially by this time period they wouldn't even know what a naval victory looks like, let alone how to earn one, even their Barbary protectorates were better at naval design than The Turkish could manage, there are some far better examples of Xebecs out there. It is a fantastic idea to use the packs as a way to plug both the unrepresented nations though, its a chance to knock out two birds with one stone where the game seriously needs to get itself some more representation in the 2nd 3rd and 4th rate categories, and also start thinking about letting some more nations into play, we have enough US ships and British ships for now at least, its time to diversify a little to try and give more love to nations that deserve some tribute but see no love. There is also a rumour that Montanes and Temerarie are in production quietly already, so it would be good to see some more interesting nations like myself and others have pointed to already on this thread.

[Werewolf]

On 1/23/2017 at 0:04 PM, z4ys said:

If you dont want a ship pack then don't pay for it. It seems that some people forget that option instead they are just flaming.

I think us "flamers" or "whiners" or however you want to conveniently box us into a group are pissed that we paid a full price for the game, have watched as over the last year the devs have wasted our money on building stupid patches, reversing them, adding in another broken feature, reversing it, then out of the blue announcing a bunch of crap noone asked for. Some of us actually believe in getting what we initially pay for - a complete, mostly bug free game - before there is talk of opening our wallets. Seeing how GL has mishandled this entire project, you can bet your sweet ass I won't be paying them another single dollar. Yes, I know. "EA, Alpha, blah blah blah".... numbers don't lie. Look how the population has abandoned this game. There is a reason why Steam reviews went from "Overwhelmingly Positive" a year ago to "Mixed"  and "Negative" in the last three to six months.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Werewolf

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Regarding ships we are over the EA statement. This discussion is about possible Ship Packs to expand our selection.

Is it that hard to stick to the subject and not divert to a generic outburst about everything else ?

Thanks