Shiloh, the element of surprise, and anticipation of Chancellorsville update

[Wright29]

I'd like to discuss how surprise in this game can be important to the experience, namely at Shiloh, and how it can improve the Chancellorsville experience. 

I think the CSA Shiloh is well done. The sneakier you are, the more effective your units are at ambushing the Union camps near Shiloh church. It requires not just power and numerical superiority, but some good tactical maneuvering through the woods. If you're sneaky enough, you can route two brigades without much of a fight.

However, for the Union, I think it's done poorly. You get to control your brigades immediately, can get them out of their camps and into great defensive positions. Your units are in good condition and morale and have their guns ready to go. I don't think this is immersive or in-line with history at all. I think it would be more fun if you had maybe five to ten in-game minutes before you are attacked. While I think it's too late to fix this at Shiloh, I would like the Devs to take this into consideration for Chancellorsville. 

I anticipate that the CSA Chancellorsville mission will be very well done. But for the Union side, make it difficult. Don't give me the time to maneuver units into proper defensive positions. As much as it sucks to see my units get ambushed or shattered right off the bat, I would prefer to immerse myself into an unfair situation if it means it will be a fun challenge for me to overcome. I like getting narrowly beaten and having to reload to explore different tactical options for the battle. That's what makes this game awesome and addictive!

[Nick Thomadis]

You should have played as Union the battle of Shiloh in closed beta... The Confederates swarmed the Union player so quickly (because the element of surprise was enhanced) that devastated the majority of players and then they rage quit. It is hard to implement exact realism and provide fun for most players, unfortunately.

[Koro]

Yeah it was near impossible, can confirm that. While accurate it would have proven a not so fun experience for new players just starting the game and be steamrolled in their second major battle. 

Some things should make it harder next patch, like cover being less valuable, so you can't just hold off the attackers indefinitely. 

You'll get some of the "surprise factor" at stones river though. 

[Nox165]

How many people are in the close beta? Why not allow people who have bought the game on steam to have access to the beta's?

[RoverGrover]

I completely understand the difficulty in balancing surprise comments, but I also agree with the assertion that surprise/difficulty is fun!  While I get that Shiloh is considered fine and you don't want to crush new players with too high of difficulty,  I'd like to see  Chancellorsville be a lot more uhhh "surprisey".  

My main argument would be that by Chancellorsville you couldn't really consider them "new" players anymore since it's significantly later in the campaign.  For the record, I found Shiloh to be almost boring as the union since you have plenty of time to set up in a very difficult to take position. 

[Wright29]

Excellent, Nick and Koro! I am looking forward to Stones River and Chancellorsville very much. Thanks for your guys' continual hard work on this great game. 

[Fred Sanford]

Could varying levels of surprise be added to the difficulty settings?  For that matter, 'orders delay' in general, such that in higher difficulty levels, units won't respond immediately, but have a wait period proportional to distance from your commander, efficiency, commander experience etc.  This would simulate the time needed to compose orders, and send the messenger to the unit.  Delay impacts would also be part of the difficulty setting selected, rather than just having more opposing troops scaling.

[waldopbarnstormer]

I have found Shiloh for the union to be too easy on medium difficulty. There is too much time to set up in good defensive positions before the csa attack, and if you make use of skirmishers you can hold up the attack even longer. I think the union should have little time to organise a defence as historically they were caught by surprise.

[Aetius]

2 hours ago, Fred Sanford said:

Could varying levels of surprise be added to the difficulty settings?  For that matter, 'orders delay' in general, such that in higher difficulty levels, units won't respond immediately, but have a wait period proportional to distance from your commander, efficiency, commander experience etc.  This would simulate the time needed to compose orders, and send the messenger to the unit.  Delay impacts would also be part of the difficulty setting selected, rather than just having more opposing troops scaling.

I'd definitely like to see this, but perhaps as an optional "Realism" setting - I think it's extremely likely this would drive a large percentage of people crazy who might otherwise like to play on harder difficulties, but it would be really neat to have to anticipate what the battle is going to look like in a few minutes and give orders based on that. Same with a more realistic reporting of enemy locations not in direct line of sight of the commander.

Another realism option that I'd really love to see would be smoke. It would change the battle rather drastically if all the smoke from the gunfire blocked LoS until it dissipated or was blown away, and units in smoke took a Condition penalty.

[Andre Bolkonsky]

10 hours ago, waldopbarnstormer said:

I have found Shiloh for the union to be too easy on medium difficulty. There is too much time to set up in good defensive positions before the csa attack, and if you make use of skirmishers you can hold up the attack even longer. I think the union should have little time to organise a defence as historically they were caught by surprise.

You want slower reaction times from the Union? Get the programmers drunk, it worked for Grant. 

[waldopbarnstormer]

What I meant is that playing as the union I feel that I have too much time to organise my defence around Shiloh church and along the creek. In my last play through because I won the crossroads and the other battle the csa forces did not have the strength to push me back past hornets nest.

I will have to try hard on my next play through when I finish. Currently just completed crampton's gap. I thought the ai should be more aggressive in trying to recapture the victory point. I flanked left through the woods with all infantry brigades but one and left my artillery and skirmishers along the stream. I pushed their right flank out of the woods destroyed the artillery in the farm and then halted. The ai had two brigades in reserve on its left flank that had chased off my skirmishers but it didn't commit them to trying to push me off the vp. The front line was along the road and both sides traded fire until the timer ran out. At one point the ai charged a brigade across the stream scattering my skirmishers and headed towards my artillery which caused me some concern as I had to hurry my reserve back to protect the guns. I liked that move because I had become complacent and left my guns vulnerable.

[GeneralPITA]

It's true, the union sits on it's thumbs for about 30 minutes while waiting for the rebels to advance. Scouting is pointless in this scenario, so I've wondered what I'm supposed to do with this time if I'm defending. Sometimes I poke around with cavalry and pick off skirmishers before the CSA main line hits the creek crossing. 

[Wandering1]

If you really want to make your life easier on hard mode? Send skirmishers up and give the computer a reason to waste its condition/ammunition charging them. Or giving an incentive for enemy melee cavalry to charge your skirmishers, and draw them into a trap set up by other skirmishers.

Plenty of things to do if you're creative.