Branders and fireships..

[admin]

How many branders or fire ships are needed to burn or sink a First rate?

[akd]

How many branders or fire ships are needed to burn or sink a First rate?

 

One if it reaches the first rate.  What are you doing up so early thinking about setting things on fire?

[Destraex]

Good question. I don't know if fireships ever destroyed one. I imagine a first rate might blow any fireship to kingdom come before it got to them?

[Destraex]

A few exerts for educational purposes from a book;

[Destraex]

[Chilly Willy]

guess it depends on how many Marshmallow's are on board

and the proper placement 

 

[Destraex]

[Destraex]

I hope this info helps. I had no idea that first rates and huge portions of fleets were so effectively destroyed by fireships.

These circumstances could make for amazing scenarios.

[Ligatorswe]

They usually had few. Even one ship often. But it was better with several so if you sank one there was still one or two as a spare.

There are several stories about how branders drifted the wrong way. That would be nice to have in the game too. Like the battle of Vyborg Bay were the swedish navy prapared a burner to send to the russian ships. It drifted wrong and one of the main swedish ships of he line, Enigheten, was struck with fire.

Branders were FEARED but it was a dngerous weapon. It could harm your own navy if you were less cautious or had unluck.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vyborg_Bay_(1790)

 

http://www.abc.se/~pa/mar/russ1790.htm

...

[Ligatorswe]

The battle of solebay.

According to sources the dutch navy sent 3 fire ships against Royal James, Royal james was one of the english ships with above 100 guns. So the dutch concentrated a lot of fire against it, and used both guns and fire ships.

So to answer your question. It was ONE fire ship that killed the Royal james. But they sent 3 ships which was shot at by the mariners and apparently they sank/were burned down without reaching the flagship. 

 

"The Battle of Solebay was the opening battle of the Third Anglo-Dutch War, 1672-74. On the evening before, Admiral Edward Montagu, 1st Earl of Sandwich, urged the Duke of York to take the fleet to sea to avoid the risk of being surprised by the Dutch while at anchor on a lee shore in Solebay (Southwold Bay, Suffolk) on the English east coast. The advice was not taken and the Dutch fleet, commanded by Lieutenant-Admiral Michiel de Ruyter, did appear and attacked Sandwich's unsupported squadron in the bay. Sandwich, in the 'Royal James', 100 guns, was heavily engaged with the squadron of Admiral Van Ghent, who sent in two fireships. The 'Royal James' sank them both but a third fireship, commanded by Jan van de Rijn, grappled the English flagship and set her ablaze. When she was engulfed by the flames Sandwich tried to escape by boat, but it was swamped by people who jumped into her with him and he was drowned. In the left foreground is a Dutch ship sinking, viewed from off the port bow, with only the fore part above the water but with bowsprit and foremast still standing. This is presumably a fireship expended in an attempt to burn the 'Royal James'. In the left background is the de Ruyter's 'Zeven Provincien', 80 guns, in starboard-quarter view with a pendant at the main. She is engaged to port with the English vice-admiral of the blue, Sir Joseph Jordan in the 'Royal Sovereign'. Her blue flag at the fore is shown above the smoke as she stands back towards the 'Royal James' after a vain attempt to weather the Dutch. Ahead of de Ruyter is the rear-admiral of his squadron, J. van Nes in the 'Ridderschap'. The 'Royal James dominates the right side of the painting. She is shown in port-broadside view with Jan van Rijn's fireship, the 'Vrede', in flames and about to run aboard her by the fore chains. The 'Royal James' has her torn topsails set and her fore and main courses have the clews hauled up. Sandwich's blue flag at the main is blowing out in the light wind. Men are shown jumping overboard and hanging to the rigging to avoid the fire both fore and aft. On the right, sailing past the 'Royal James's' port quarter, is a Dutch vice-admiral, viewed from the port bow, with a flag at the fore and pendant at the main. She is under a fore course, a clewed main course, main and mizzen topsails and with her fore topsail much torn and half lowered. In the right foreground is the ship's boat in which the fireship's crew is escaping after setting light to their vessel. The artist was the younger son of Willem van de Velde the Elder. Born in Leiden, he studied under Simon de Vlieger in Weesp and in 1652 moved back to Amsterdam. There he worked in his father's studio and developed the skill of carefully drawing and painting ships in tranquil settings. He changed his subject matter, however, when he came with his father to England in 1672, by working on views of royal yachts, men-of-war and on storm scenes. From 1672 the depiction of sea battles from the English side became a priority but unlike his father's they were not usually eyewitness accounts. However, from early 1674 both the van de Veldes were expressly patronized by Charles II for this purpose, the father to draw sea fights and the son - who was by far the more accomplished painter - 'for putting the said Draughts into Colours'. After his father's death in 1693 he was officially engaged to be present at and record significant maritime events. He continued to run a substantial and influential studio until his own death and with his father, especially as a painter, he is regarded as founder of the English school of marine painting. The painting is signed 'W.V.Velde J' on the back of the canvas and 'W.V.Velde' on a spar on the left."

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/11794.html

[Destraex]

Reading all this text. Branders seem to have been considered the NUCLEAR weapons of the day.

They were considered a very low blow indeed probably because they were so in discriminant.

[Ligatorswe]

Yes Destraex. With the difference that sometimes these "nukes" exploded in the homebase.

Like 1676 when the swedish fire boat Gröne Jägaren caught fire in the swedish main navalbase and sunk. The officers were afterwards VERY happy that only the burner was harmed. A burner that catches fire in your own navalbase. Filled with gunpower. Not good at all.

http://www.sjohistor...-Grone-Jagaren/


Only the best and bravest captains were picked for these fire-ships. I would suggest that players sometimes as a special mission should be able to play firsship-captein. You should be able to earn LOTS of cash on these missions, that very seldom occur, but when they occur you can earn LOTS!

. For Swedish-speaking people that can read the. Here is the swedish sea-law of 1685 with its paragraphs on fire-ships. 

http://books.google.se/books?id=SWVZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA933&lpg=PA933&dq=br%C3%A4nnare+skepp&source=bl&ots=8vwKkiJBaM&sig=2odUk-yG2-CvvGBFYPmSjjFGgro&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=EU1fVM3iM8PnavrqgfAB&ved=0CFUQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=br%C3%A4nnare%20skepp&f=false

 

184 is about how to send officers to capture a driftng fireships. The paragraphs that preceded it deals with rewards for the captains that stear fire-ships.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Wow, this is a bold area of exploration. Scenarios where fire ship use would be appropriate suggest a pretty deep set of mechanics under the game Can we ask what ideas are behind the question? Thanks for all the good reading material Destraex and Ligatorswe, I enjoyed that.

As stated, getting caught alongside a fire ship would be the end of you, be your vessel a cutter or an SoL. One was enough to take out any ship, but 'normal' usage would employ small fleets of them to ensure a decent level of panic was caused, as much as to increase the chance of destroying particular targets.

Baggy

[maturin]

Just please don't make fireships high-seas suicide bombers or homing missiles.

They aren't useful unless the enemy can't dodge them.

[Hawke]

What Maturin said, fireships should only be useful in something like a surprise attack on ships moored in a harbour or maybe against ships that are heading into the wind and are too slow to get away. Their use should be highly selective and no terribly effective, otherwise you'll have people trolling around sending fireships in to sink a 1st rate you just spend dozens of hours getting.