The 2 minute timer cannot stand!:

[fox2run]

@fox2run

Please vote in my poll.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/16515-remove-loss-of-durability-from-smalllarge-battles-under-missions/?p=313931

 

Good point Anne. I dont know how to vote. I just know that the mission world is empty as well. And Im tired of fighting versus cpt Blood all the time. Something aint working and players on nation chat says this as well. No one can find a fight anymore...

[Enraged Ewok]

I dont know how long you played this. But I can tell you: this game was FANTASTIC back in february... Now its just... boring... sorry... not my mistake... 2 min killed the old spirit somehow.

 

Back then you could almost always join an ongoing battle. They where fun and exciting - no option to surrender just to save your men - it was fight to the end! The armour was a bit lesser so it was sink or die!

 

It was thrilling and everyone was doing the best also in uneven fights. Now players surrender to save some perks. And in good time before a leak. Its bloody boring in a gaming point of view. 

 

Its realism when it goes wrong. When realism is done right it is doing some good for gameplay. Sid Meier would never make such boring changes for a game like this as it has been done here.

 

I played from the day the game hit early access in Steam a week before January was done. It took a couple weeks (by the time I was in a mid-sized 5th rate) for the magic to wear off. I did a lot more missions in that time trying to level than anything else, since the US was located so out of the way for PVP on PVP2. It was almost entirely empty PBs in the deep water areas. The first actual large PVP was off Jamaica with a group of clanmates, which was a 16 vs our 8, then a 25 vs our 8, then another 25 or more vs our 6. I don't miss that kind of crap. The freeport ganking shenanigans got big in the area I was playing in at that time as well, leading to an incredibly unfun time for myself and most of our clanmates. Midmarch or whenever the big PVP2 exodus was, the clan split and a lot of us went pirate on PVP1. Ganking was still rampant one way or the other, and not many big evenly matched fleet actions happened in the pirate march up the East coast.

 

Eventually I got bored of it all and started sailing alone or with any other pirate or pirate-friendly national I ran into in my hunting grounds. I've gotten more good fights this way against the British with Spanish, French, and even Swede allies as well as other pirates than I ever did with 5 minute timers as a national or pirate with 6-8+ friendlies. So at this point, I get most of my fun playing as a loner. It's just more fun for me. Those "FANTASTIC" times you mentioned were not nearly as fantastic for me as they seem to have been for you, or you were just under the same "new thing" magic I was at the end of January.

[Cecil Selous]

For fucks sake which game are you playing that you can't find battles? Which nation do you play and where do you sail?And if you are so eager to have really large ones, why don't you want to use TS? Without TS the large battles are everything but fun. Don't you sail in a group if you want large battles? I finally made the decision to not visit jamaica for a while because I got bored of the large clusterfucks there. No coordination, some leave and you can't rely on them, many prefer to wait for them exiting BS etc. etc.

That a game has a large playerbase at the begining which then declines is totally normal. Especially for a niche game like NA. lower playerbase results in fewer battles. that is pure logic. But the lower playerbase is not the result of the 2 min timers.

 

 

 

Only one was as a member of a ganking group and the only ships found surrendered after 3 min in battle. Whats the fun in that?

 

Don't gank! simple as that. You hate it too, so why do it? I honestly don't know why gankers have fun in the way they play. If I get ganked by a way larger force (like a 5 vs 1 and above) and have no chance to escape, I pop off some broadsides and surrender! They will get my ship and maybe that is there only goal, a confirmation that their tactic is working and somehow "fun" but I save some useful time. I can't be bothered with this playstyle and the usual go kart ramming to board with floating barracks (which for me is way more frustrating then getting ganked). So before I get chained to death I surrender and save my crew. It's the players. They will even do this if the timer would be 10 min. But in this case you will also get the other types of ganks, which were common before the devs switched to the 2 min timers. 

And I still didn't see you responding to the problem with longer timers and the resulting ganks out of nowhere (ports, BS, behind drawing range) 

 

And if everybody is sitting in port waiting for something to happen it will still happen, but they can't do anything. Sail out there, be active and don't hesitate to help someone if you see it happening. This is another problem, people just don't care for others even if they could turn the gank into an equal fight. I saw it happen so often, people in bigger warships and higher number around me or others. But in in the instance you won't see them. The solution to that is not a longer timer but a change of mind  (And maybe XP/gold distribution according to the BR, but who knows. XP and gold is not really the incentive and shouldn't be).

I think the 2 circle idea has some great potential too. We will have to wait and see.

 

 

 

 

small 1 vs 1 battles should maybe be at the "mission" or duels? Guys like you kills the fun waiting for a 1 vs 1 outside free ports (or rather 1 vs 4)... 2 min does not work. Im sorry. 

 

Not the solo player is the problem, but the large groups who don't prey on other groups but lone players. But you can't punish them for that. It is lame, yes but it is not forbidden. Just don't play with them.

[TommyShelby]

Look, just because you (Fox2run) thinks the game was much better with 5 minute timers doesn't mean it was.

 

And just because i think the game is much better with 2 minute timers doesn't mean it is. 

 

It's all about personal opinions right now.

What i can tell you though is the following: With 5 minute timers organized ganking fleets had a huuuuge advantage. They could have a "bait" ship sailing 4 minutes away from their main fleet (Out of visual range), when someone took the bait the main fleet would sail to the battle and enter. 

This happened all the time, like literally, all the time. 
Furthermore a gank fleet can cover a huuuuge area with longer timers. With 2 minute timers these 2 things aren't possible because any fleet must sail close together. 

 

To have fun with the current timer system you don't have to be a "ganker". Most of the veteran players i know that sail Solo much prefer the 2 minute timers because "what you see is what you get", a must for a Solo player.

 

There is only 1 reason i can think of that would make you have a hard time as a Solo Player.

1. You use the wrong ships.. 

- By this i mean that when going Solo you have to pick a ship that works well in solo play. EG: Trincomalee, Renomee, Rattlesnake, Surprise, Privateer, Pickle. Play these ships the right way and you will "never" get ganked.

 

I'm having a ton of fun when i play, i have lots of PvP (Unless i go "hunting" when there is only 200 players online). 

2 minute timers saved PvP, it didn't ruin it. 

Anyhow, this is a moot discussion as the "2 circle" RoE system is coming soon.

But just keep the following in mind; With 2 circle system it will still be "what you see is what you get".

[Mrdoomed]

Doomed, get off the pedastal. Stop sicking up to the devs. Accept this game has problems. Stop telling people they arent PvP players.

I have bare minimum ships for RvR. I've been working on rebuilding my PvP stocks, however, as Ultravis has said, I am forced to do PvE to support PvP.

I dont like doing 200xp orders to get gold, but i need gold to craft, and the fleet orders are the best way to make that money fastest. Trading will take up all my playtime, if I try to do that, and with so little valid PvP opportunities, even if I wanted to try to live off of the tiny amounts of cash you get from PvP, I wouldnt be able to.

The Gankers have this same problem, but instead of trying to work around it or address the issue in the forums, they

Play farmville around freeports and capitals. They farm their ships so they dont have to build them, because the 2 minute timer makes it easy. Then they come on here and support it because without it theyd be back to having to figure out how to fight again

And once again. Why cant all you brave little warriors just group upand pvp all the mean bullies farming right in front of your capital? In 9 months not one of you brave warriors have said why not.

Dont worry people from your faction via pns or twitch tell us why. But hey keep playing the victim and then blame me lol. It suits you.

[Mrdoomed]

Anyone can say things. Show us the correlation between player numbers and 5 min timers, then two min timers, then the introduction and disabling of the social perk. Cross check your numbers with the inevitable steady decline from the EA craze with bumps every time a content patch hit. Ponder the numbers, don't forget the dates and report back if there is a statistically significant correlation that supports your assumptions.

If not, this is all just hot air.

It's ok that you prefer the chaotic and snowballing large fights to the deliberate and skill based OW-hunting that is enabled by short timers.

Also, doom and gloom won't get you far.

Excuse me? I CAN get you far. Very far.

[Mrdoomed]

For fucks sake which game are you playing that you can't find battles? Which nation do you play and where do you sail?And if you are so eager to have really large ones, why don't you want to use TS? Without TS the large battles are everything but fun. Don't you sail in a group if you want large battles? I finally made the decision to not visit jamaica for a while because I got bored of the large clusterfucks there. No coordination, some leave and you can't rely on them, many prefer to wait for them exiting BS etc. etc.

That a game has a large playerbase at the begining which then declines is totally normal. Especially for a niche game like NA. lower playerbase results in fewer battles. that is pure logic. But the lower playerbase is not the result of the 2 min timers.

Don't gank! simple as that. You hate it too, so why do it? I honestly don't know why gankers have fun in the way they play. If I get ganked by a way larger force (like a 5 vs 1 and above) and have no chance to escape, I pop off some broadsides and surrender! They will get my ship and maybe that is there only goal, a confirmation that their tactic is working and somehow "fun" but I save some useful time. I can't be bothered with this playstyle and the usual go kart ramming to board with floating barracks (which for me is way more frustrating then getting ganked). So before I get chained to death I surrender and save my crew. It's the players. They will even do this if the timer would be 10 min. But in this case you will also get the other types of ganks, which were common before the devs switched to the 2 min timers.

And I still didn't see you responding to the problem with longer timers and the resulting ganks out of nowhere (ports, BS, behind drawing range)

And if everybody is sitting in port waiting for something to happen it will still happen, but they can't do anything. Sail out there, be active and don't hesitate to help someone if you see it happening. This is another problem, people just don't care for others even if they could turn the gank into an equal fight. I saw it happen so often, people in bigger warships and higher number around me or others. But in in the instance you won't see them. The solution to that is not a longer timer but a change of mind (And maybe XP/gold distribution according to the BR, but who knows. XP and gold is not really the incentive and shouldn't be).

I think the 2 circle idea has some great potential too. We will have to wait and see.

Not the solo player is the problem, but the large groups who don't prey on other groups but lone players. But you can't punish them for that. It is lame, yes but it is not forbidden. Just don't play with them.

I found my vice president.

Seriously though, dont these people just make you want to smash your face into a wall to make them stop? They all argue both sides of the same fucking coin all day long. In the same sentence even sometimes they will say "cant leave port cuz of spookies " and " cant find a battle uz of spookies" lol.

I stfg they have to just be fucking with us cux it cant be real.

[CaptVonGunn]

The reality is boring. That's why you have computergames. 2 min is hostile to: longer, bigger battles. Reinforcements "help me", safe home waters, no-TS players that likes some easy access to battles.

 

Maybe it's good for TS folks or simulator freaks.

 

 They don't get longer bigger battles with the longer timer.. We had one for a while and it gave us stupidly lopsided battles after the attacker had managed to maneuver into an advantage it all vanished with Teleporting and long timers allowing people that were docked up to enter a battle

[Rychu Karas]

IMO battle instantiation should be open until BR is equal or similar For example +-20%BR of the stronger side. In case when the battle is equal it should close quite quick to not over escalate. It helps to secure "fair" fight but allows to reinforce ganked captains by many opponents.

[fox2run]

 They don't get longer bigger battles with the longer timer.. We had one for a while and it gave us stupidly lopsided battles after the attacker had managed to maneuver into an advantage it all vanished with Teleporting and long timers allowing people that were docked up to enter a battle

 

This is simply not right. If the timers are longer players have more time to join them. More can participate. Equal battles are a different matter. Only BR limits can control these. 2 min timer does not prevent loopsided battles nor ganking. I have experienced 1 versus 25 but more often it is 1 versus 5 or 6. You loose anyway.

[shaeberle84]

The 2 minute timer is killing the game. Ganking is no fun, neither for newbies nor for experienced players. This game needs to be fun, otherwhise it won't get played.

 

The timer should dissapear as a whole. New ships can enter where the combat has started. They will be further away from the action the later they join. Problem solved.

 

We want to have huge battles, that is why we play the game. We do not gank squads who kill traders and newbies in front of the enemy capital.

[Fletch]

Why?? 

 

Why all these rules to PREVENT battles? Don't get it. Sry.

 

Fox since I started playing this game, the battle timer has shrunk from 15 mins too 2 mins.

It was done for the simple reason, when you start a fight what you see on the horizon will be what can enter your battle. This also protects mission runners who wait until no ship is in sight then start their mission. Yes it can be frustrating at times of course, but 2 mins has proven to be the optimal timer. Can you imagine the chances of doing a mission in peace around Jamaica if the timer was 15 mins? It works both for and against everyone and people need to get used to it.

Why do you have the timer while undocking you ask?

Its simple people would hide an entire fleet in port with a lone ship outside, the moment it was attacked the whole fleet would undock and attack. Again it goes back to the point when you start a fight what you see on the horizon is what your gonna be dealing with.

Should there be a social perk of some kind that extends a timer or the chance of reinforcement? I thought it was fun and saw some huge brawls go down so I am  not dead against it.

Lets see what the devs come up with.

[fox2run]

The 2 minute timer is killing the game. Ganking is no fun, neither for newbies nor for experienced players. This game needs to be fun, otherwhise it won't get played.

 

The timer should dissapear as a whole. New ships can enter where the combat has started. They will be further away from the action the later they join. Problem solved.

 

We want to have huge battles, that is why we play the game. We do not gank squads who kill traders and newbies in front of the enemy capital.

 

Spot on!

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Yes.

Ganking is no fun. Nothing is learned from it. Ganking and revenge fleets are the devil.

 

 

What does this have to do with timers ?

[Yar Matey]

Look, a game like this where it has an open world that relys on Realm vs Realm for its combat system must have open and available battles for players to join, or this game will fall flat on its face before its even released.

 

The people on this forums that are supporting 2 minute timers are not your average every day player.  These are you well organized, most experienced players with Teamspeak or some other chat program to communicate.  

 

The average player that is sailing around solo either trading, looking for pvp battles, or doing missions is the MAJORITY of your player base.  If they are sailing around and see that battle is closed every time they run into the PvP swords, they will just stop playing the game.  If they are sailing around close to the nation capital and constanlty find themselves in 5v1 battles losing their ships, they will just leave and go play something else. They do not have the time or patients to go looking for PvP the way these well organized 5-10 man squads do.  Your average everyday player logs in does a mission or 2, maybe does a port battle or wants to join a PvP battle or 2 in open world, then log off for the night.

 

The only way to really balanced the RvR in this game and make it work for everyone is to have all PvP battles open for the entire duration of the battle, and have new players joining spawn farther and farther away from the point at which the battle started.  Every 1 minute = 500 meters away from the battle.  Its that simple.  If you join 10 minutes late, you will be sailing a long time in the battle realm to get to where the action is.  

 

Also, when you are close to a port, within a few hundred meters in open world, players should not be able to attack each other.  You should have to sail a certain distance away from the port and the enemy must have sailed a certain distanced away from port in order for either player to tag the other for combat.  

Edited September 21, 2016 by Ultravis

[Mrdoomed]

Look, a game like this where it has an open world that relys on Realm vs Realm for its combat system must have open and available battles for players to join, or this game will fall flat on its face before its even released.

The people on this forums that are supporting 2 minute timers are not your average every day player. These are you well organized, most experienced players with Teamspeak or some other chat program to communicate.

The average player that is sailing around solo either trading, looking for pvp battles, or doing missions is the MAJORITY of your player base. If they are sailing around and see that battle is closed every time they run into the PvP swords, they will just stop playing the game. They do not have the time or patients to go looking for PvP. Your average everyday player logs in does a mission or 2, maybe does a port battle or wants to join a PvP battle or 2 in open world, then log off for the night.

The only way to really balanced the RvR in this game and make it work for everyone is to have all PvP battles open for the entire duration of the battle, and have new players joining spawn farther and farther away from the point at which the battle started. Every 1 minute = 500 meters away from the battle. Its that simple. If you join 10 minutes late, you will be sailing a long time in the battle realm to get to where the action is.

Also, when you are close to a port, within a few hundred meters in open world, players should not be able to attack each other. You should have to sail a certain distance away from the port and the enemy must have sailed a certain distanced away from port in order for either player to tag the other for combat.

Everything you just said is a complete lie based on YOUR opinion. I fall into none of your fantasy theory and yet infind the 2 minute timer fine.

[Yar Matey]

Everything you just said is a complete lie based on YOUR opinion. I fall into none of your fantasy theory and yet infind the 2 minute timer fine.

 

I have heard players on more than one occasion complain about not being able to join battles.  Claiming that it was "stupid", "dumb", "retarded".  

 

Its is not a lie.  It is what it is.  

 

Exhibit A:  http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15206-ganking-squads-not-solved/

Edited September 21, 2016 by Ultravis

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

That is normal Ultravis. They weren't close to the engagement when it started. They might be out of visual range or sailing up wind. In both cases, taking time scale, by the time they would arrive the battle would be long decided.

 

Let's put a "always open" battle scenario. Take for example...Cayman Brac to Litte Cayman diameter for a battle instance. That's about 3 minutes with good wind at 75x time compression. Battle instance is 1x. A buddy is attacked outsider of Little Cayman on his trader, you read his SOS and jump out of port at Cayman Brac ( giving a freebie here, your ship should be deployed at sea ), you enter the battle instance. You will navigate for roughly 225 minutes until you hit the engagement point.

 

Fair and square for both parties. Battle is always open ( until time runs out ) and time compression is not abused.

[jodgi]

I know what is a lie, though: The idea that you can have skill based play with long join timers.

[Mrdoomed]

I have heard players on more than one occasion complain about not being able to join battles. Claiming that it was "stupid", "dumb", "retarded".

Its is not a lie. It is what it is.

Exhibit A: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15206-ganking-squads-not-solved/

Ive heard the exact opposite.

[Vernon Merrill]

"Rookie zone" is that way-------->.

Devs made one for your delicate sensibilities. See you in the Bahamas.

[Fletch]

Look, a game like this where it has an open world that relys on Realm vs Realm for its combat system must have open and available battles for players to join, or this game will fall flat on its face before its even released.

 

The people on this forums that are supporting 2 minute timers are not your average every day player.  These are you well organized, most experienced players with Teamspeak or some other chat program to communicate.  

 

The average player that is sailing around solo either trading, looking for pvp battles, or doing missions is the MAJORITY of your player base.  If they are sailing around and see that battle is closed every time they run into the PvP swords, they will just stop playing the game.  If they are sailing around close to the nation capital and constanlty find themselves in 5v1 battles losing their ships, they will just leave and go play something else. They do not have the time or patients to go looking for PvP the way these well organized 5-10 man squads do.  Your average everyday player logs in does a mission or 2, maybe does a port battle or wants to join a PvP battle or 2 in open world, then log off for the night.

 

The only way to really balanced the RvR in this game and make it work for everyone is to have all PvP battles open for the entire duration of the battle, and have new players joining spawn farther and farther away from the point at which the battle started.  Every 1 minute = 500 meters away from the battle.  Its that simple.  If you join 10 minutes late, you will be sailing a long time in the battle realm to get to where the action is.  

 

Also, when you are close to a port, within a few hundred meters in open world, players should not be able to attack each other.  You should have to sail a certain distance away from the port and the enemy must have sailed a certain distanced away from port in order for either player to tag the other for combat.  

 

Learn the game. Learn how it works and then sail accordingly. All those people you hear moaning about not getting in battles, have they ever thought it also stops people ganking them inside their missions and battles they start against AI ect?

 

Have you seriously thought about how it would be if every time you started a mission bad guys could jump in and sink you for the next 15 mins? You could never do a mission in peace.

Right now the rule of thumb is simple, if your starting a battle either PVP or a mission and you cant see any other ships on the Horizon your going to be able to do it in peace, if there are sails on the horizon you might get disturbed. This is the simple reason for the 2 min timer, we have had longer timers before and it was much worse.

[fox2run]

How can easy access to battles be "much worse"? Something is very wrong here. Indefinite timer with spawn points depending on time is the best so far. The game right now is supporting the narrow segment of players with Mic and TS and time enough.

 

 

Yesterday I played the whole night just to find a big fleet. Joined it. Made it to a PB that was empty. After that I got intercepted by a small brit reno that let my indiaman go after 30 min of standstill due to late hours.

 

I wonder who such a game targets? Compared to other games this one is time demanding and not always rewarding. Since 2 min timer we have lost 75% of players.

[Anne Wildcat]

Compared to other games this one is time demanding and not always rewarding.

It is the time demand that turns off a lot of players, not the inability to join closed battles. But not every game is for everyone.

I'd prefer if NA had no mods, no perks, only your ship & your skills determine your outcome.

You want an age of sail arena combat game, or so it sounds, that is not NA.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Anne Wildcat

[Guest]

That is normal Ultravis. They weren't close to the engagement when it started. They might be out of visual range or sailing up wind. In both cases, taking time scale, by the time they would arrive the battle would be long decided.

Let's put a "always open" battle scenario. Take for example...Cayman Brac to Litte Cayman diameter for a battle instance. That's about 3 minutes with good wind at 75x time compression. Battle instance is 1x. A buddy is attacked outsider of Little Cayman on his trader, you read his SOS and jump out of port at Cayman Brac ( giving a freebie here, your ship should be deployed at sea ), you enter the battle instance. You will navigate for roughly 225 minutes until you hit the engagement point.

 

Fair and square for both parties. Battle is always open ( until time runs out ) and time compression is not abused.

Again battle instance is not 1x... It would take between 8 and 12 hours for a fast battle irl.. Tacking alone would be time consuming.. Any argument based in an approximation of time can securely be derided as nonsense, since there's in actuality two different time compressions in play - one that is easy to convert to rt and another that is a lot more difficult to ascertain a scale for (it would require real life experimentations with steady winds, and a lot of different ships) therefore I cannot accept any argument based on time..

I can however accept arguments that goes towards game mechanics but then any criticism of the mechanics must be accepted as just as valid as your opinion.. An earlier post pointed to the problems of doing missions which is an argument that I can accept.. The problem of a lone trader being tagged and pulled into a fight after which the counter gank squad jumps out of port and joins battle is another argument I can accept.. I can however understand the frustration that it can be difficult to join friends that's been tagged and I don't think it would harm any1 if timers were extended. I wouldn't however say battles should always remain open..

I cannot accept the cloaking in bs, in effect a situation much like the counter gank from port. A lone British surprise (or whatever) is tagged by three Danish surprises (as an example) and then 10 sec before battle out jumps 17 British surprises surprise the Danish team and due to timers the 17 asses (as in not aces) can join the fight.