Speed, firepower and cargo space

[Alex Connor]

The holy trinity of characteristics that make a ship worth sailing. 

 

If you look at ships of any given size, usually they can be divided into options with speed, with firepower and with cargo space. Some will be very specialized into one category, others will mix between speed and firepower, speed and cargo capacity, or firepower and cargo capacity, but none successfully combine all three. No single ship is best at everything and there are always worthwhile choices to make.

 

For example, you might find a 150ft frigate, a 150ft 4th rate and a 150ft indiaman. All will cost about the same to build and equip, but the frigate has speed, the 4th rate has firepower and the Indiaman has cargo space.

 

We should look to applying these three characteristics across Naval Action's impressive and ever increasing ship list in order to give every vessel a useful role.

 

The Ships

 

Above the basic cutter starter option, we have 4 choices, the Cutter, Lynx, Privateer and Pickle. (5 Dura)

 

• Cutter - Firepower/Cargo space - 12 guns and broad hull, but not so good a sailor as others here.
• Lynx - Speed/Cargo space - The original was a letter of marque merchantman, a fast smuggler with license to hunt but only 8 guns.
• Privateer - Speed/Firepower - Compared to the Lynx, sacrifices cargo space for 12 guns.
• Pickle - Speed/Firepower - Alternative to privateer.
• Traders cutter and traders lynx would be eliminated, their cargo capacity added to normal cutter and lynx.

Next, brigs and sloops. The Brig, Snow, Mercury, Niagara, Mortar Brig and Rattlesnake. (5 Dura)

•  Brig - Cargo space - Based on merchant hull form, the brig has the largest capacity combined with moderate speed and firepower.
• Snow - Firepower/Cargo space - A military transport, the snow is slow but has good cargo capacity and can go toe-to-toe with any brig or sloop in battle.
• Mercury - Speed/Firepower - Good example of modern Brig-Sloop, 20 guns and sails well.
• Niagara - Speed/Firepower - Slightly faster but more fragile alternative to Mercury.
• Mortar Brig - Firepower - 13in mortar, need more be said?
• Rattlesnake - Speed - No cargo space, light armament but very quick.
• Traders Brig, Traders Snow eliminated (capacity added to normal brig and snow).
• Navy Brig perhaps eliminated as made redundant by real naval brigs like Mercury and Niagara

Small frigates and large sloops. Cerberus and Rattlesnake Heavy. (5 Dura)

• Cerberus - Firepower - 26x 32lb carronades.
• Rattlesnake Heavy - Speed - Faster than Cerberus, less firepower

Mid-sized frigates. Frigate, Belle Poule, Santa Cecilia, Le Gros Ventre, Renommee and Surprise. (5 Dura)

• Frigate - Firepower
• Belle Poule - Firepower  
• Santa Cecilia - Firepower
• Le Gros Ventre - Cargo space
• Renommee - Speed - highest base frigate speed.
• Surprise - Speed - Agile, good upwind performance, bowchasers. Excellent hunter.

Large frigates, small 2 deckers. Trincomalee, Essex, Ingermanland, Indiaman (4 Dura)

• Trincomalee - Speed
• Essex - Speed
• Ingermanland - Firepower
• Indiaman - Cargo space

3rd rates and 3rd rate sized frigates. Bellona, Constitution, Agamemnon, Indefatigable. (3 Dura)

• Bellona - Firepower - the baseline 74 gun 3rd rate that makes up the backbone of any fleet.
• Constitution - Speed - Also very expensive to build.
• Agamemnon - Speed/Firepower - Sails very well for a SoL,  cheaper than Bellona
• Indefatigable - Speed - Razeed Agamemnon, further improved sailing qualities and reduced crew requirement. Tough compared to frigates.
• 3rd rate would be eliminated unless there is need for a generic SoL.

2nd rates, Pavel And Bucentaure. (2 Dura)

• Pavel - Firepower
• Bucentaure - Firepower

1st rates, Victory, Santisima and L'Ocean (1 Dura)

• Victory - Speed - By 1st rate standards anyway. Victory sailed well, and could in general keep up with 2 deckers. Less expensive than other 2.
• Santisima - Firepower - All the firepower in the world and even not so slow at best point, but extraordinarily poor handling and upwind performance.
• L'Ocean - Speed/Firepower - More firepower than the Victory and better handling than the Santisima.

 

For the most part, this would be about adjusting availability/cost/dura rather than battle stats which have no need of changes beyond tweaks to 1 or 2 ships. For example, Ingermanland armament might be reduced to 24/12/6lb gundecks (or 30/12/6) because the ship is no longer directly competing with the Constitution. Likewise, Bellona might be reduced to 32/18/9 to bring the ship more inline with the 24/18/6 Agamemnon. There would also be a few cases of merging the cargo capacity of a trader version with the guns from the normal type.

 

Overall, an attempt to make sure every ship in Naval Action is worth sailing and none get ignored because a similar rival is just clearly superior.

[Rychu Karas]

You forgot to mention about Surprise, IMO the best one in category mid frigate class.

Fast, extremely maneuverable, but light firepower.

 

EDIT, also Consti is the 4th with 4 duras

Edited September 16, 2016 by Rychu Karas

[Alex Connor]

You forgot to mention about Surprise, IMO the best one in category mid frigate class.

Fast, extremely maneuverable, but light firepower.

Knew I forgot something 

 

Thanks, added to list.

[Knobby]

I very much disagree with removing trader versions and giving their normal counterparts the cargo capacity. War ships might have the same base cargo space as traders based on the same hull, but they have to use most of it.

Those big heavy guns for starters take up a lot of the tonnage. Then comes the powder and shot. They have a huge crew complement that needs huge amounts of provisions and water.

There is a reason that merchantmen were not as heavily armed and crewed as men of war, and it's not just the upfront costs of guns and wages.

When men of war were used to carry cargo, it would either be high value low weight/volume, or in the case of precious metals, in place of balast.

[Jan van Santen]

 

3rd rates and 3rd rate sized frigates. Bellona, Constitution, Agamemnon, Indefatigable. (3 Dura)

 

 

Constitution and Agamemnon both have 4 dura.

 

 there are a few more criteria which make me chose a ship: crew size and distribution, ease of handling, stability as gunplatform (heel, ease of aiming), sailing characteristics (upwind, downwind....) hull shape ("bounces shots").....

 

It's always the match between the package of ship's properties, my personal playstyle and what I want to use the ship for (gunship, boarder, trader hunter, fleet...) which makes me pick one

Edited September 16, 2016 by Jan van Santen

[Sir Texas Sir]

Constitution and Agamemnon both have 4 dura.

Yep they are pretty much super frigs that are more like 3rds than 4ths

[Alex Connor]

I very much disagree with removing trader versions and giving their normal counterparts the cargo capacity. War ships might have the same base cargo space as traders based on the same hull, but they have to use most of it.

Those big heavy guns for starters take up a lot of the tonnage. Then comes the powder and shot. They have a huge crew complement that needs huge amounts of provisions and water.

There is a reason that merchantmen were not as heavily armed and crewed as men of war, and it's not just the upfront costs of guns and wages.

When men of war were used to carry cargo, it would either be high value low weight/volume, or in the case of precious metals, in place of balast.

 

Oh, I agree, but the brig, snow, lynx and cutter are not warships.

 

They are respectively a merchant brig, a military transport, an armed smuggler and a packet vessel. In the same way that the LGV carries both guns and cargo, those vessels were designed to carry cargo along with their armament and crew, and it makes no sense to have a dedicated trader version of something that's already a trader vessel.

 

Constitution and Agamemnon both have 4 dura.

 

A suggestion for change.

[Alex Connor]

 there are a few more criteria which make me chose a ship: crew size and distribution, ease of handling, stability as gunplatform (heel, ease of aiming), sailing characteristics (upwind, downwind....) hull shape ("bounces shots").....

 

It's always the match between the package of ship's properties, my personal playstyle and what I want to use the ship for (gunship, boarder, trader hunter, fleet...) which makes me pick one

Those are secondary characteristics, you wouldn't pick stability as a gunplatform over speed or firepower.

[Alex Connor]

Yep they are pretty much super frigs that are more like 3rds than 4ths

 

Indeed. The Agamemnon is a 3rd rate, while the Constitution is as big as a 74 and bordering on SoL firepower. Throwing either of those ships into direct competition with smaller 4th rate 2 deckers is very unfair to the 4th rate and means you have to upgun the 4th rate just to stand a chance (which leads to thing like the Ingermanland with 32/18/6lb gundeck even though the real ship carried 24/12/6lb gundecks)

[Knobby]

Oh, I agree, but the brig, snow, lynx and cutter are not warships.

 

They are respectively a merchant brig, a military transport, an armed smuggler and a packet vessel. In the same way that the LGV carries both guns and cargo, those vessels were designed to carry cargo along with their armament and crew, and it makes no sense to have a dedicated trader version of something that's already a trader vessel.

Comparing the brig to the mercury, the brig does not give up much of firepower for it's cargo space. And i don't think the snow should be used as a comparison, as it's a great lakes ship and as such needs to carry only a fraction of the provisions of a ocean going vessel.

 

And still all the merchant variants carry much less crew, which is a huge factor in available cargo space.

 

The LGV, however, does give up a lot of firepower compared to similar sized warships. I would argue that its crew complement is still to high, but at least the armament is appropriate for a trader.

 

Perhaps a mechanism that would increase cargo space when carrying less crew would be a nice mechanism, but that might not be balanced unless OW sailing ability is also affected.

[pietjenoob]

also the Constitution is according to most sources a Super-frigate/frigate-killer so putting her in the line of a 3rd is not fair in my opinium because the english afterwards made ships with the constitution as basis. and about the L'Ocean is shit up wind just as the santisima.

[Alex Connor]

Comparing the brig to the mercury, the brig does not give up much of firepower for it's cargo space. And i don't think the snow should be used as a comparison, as it's a great lakes ship and as such needs to carry only a fraction of the provisions of a ocean going vessel.

 

And still all the merchant variants carry much less crew, which is a huge factor in available cargo space.

 

The LGV, however, does give up a lot of firepower compared to similar sized warships. I would argue that its crew complement is still to high, but at least the armament is appropriate for a trader.

 

Perhaps a mechanism that would increase cargo space when carrying less crew would be a nice mechanism, but that might not be balanced unless OW sailing ability is also affected.

 

I would like to see a crew/cargo space slider, an important mechanism. Similar for a gun/cargo space slider. 16 guns is a lot for a merchant brig, but the design is unquestionably a traders vessel.

 

All the merchant ships are allowed too many crew, perhaps factoring in passengers as crew. Indiaman with 380 crew etc when the real ship would have 130 or so.

[Alex Connor]

also the Constitution is according to most sources a Super-frigate/frigate-killer so putting her in the line of a 3rd is not fair in my opinium because the english afterwards made ships with the constitution as basis. and about the L'Ocean is shit up wind just as the santisima.

 

Constitution is a 3rd rate sized ship that cost more to build than HMS Victory and which sacrifices firepower for speed (as do all frigates).

 

Apart from gun count, there is no comparison with the normal (and far more common) class of small cheap 2 decker 4th rates. 

 

Because frigates carry light armaments for their size, something like a 50 gun frigate will always be bigger and faster than a 50 gun 2 decked ship. That's why I've put Constitution/Indefatigable with 3rd rates ships, and  Trincomalee/Essex with 4th rate ships. You get a fair choice, speed or firepower.

[Jan van Santen]

Those are secondary characteristics, you wouldn't pick stability as a gunplatform over speed or firepower.

 

I would

 

Let me quote  http://www.navalactionwiki.com/index.php?title=Belle_Poule, so this doesn't look like it is just my personal preference

 

One of the most popular frigates in the game, the Belle Poule is considered the best all around 12-pounder frigate. She has a nice balance of speed, maneuverability and firepower.

 

The Belle Poule is largely equivalent to the generic Frigate, having the same number of crew and guns, except the generic Frigate can carry 18-pounder guns on her lower deck One would think that this would be a major weakness, but the Belle Poule has more structure than the frigate does. Her hull shape, similar to the Renommee, makes shots seem to ricochet more off of her hull. The Belle Poule also seems to be one of the easiest frigates to sail, as she seems to be very forgiving while tacking.

 

(Emphasis by me)

 

So you see: it's the overall package that makes a ship desirable, not just it's "primary" specs.

Basically you have to do the same thing with ships in NA you would do when buying a car in rl: get all the info you can get and than test drive it.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Jan van Santen

[Alex Connor]

I would

 

Let me quote  http://www.navalactionwiki.com/index.php?title=Belle_Poule, so this doesn't look like it is just my personal preference

 

One of the most popular frigates in the game, the Belle Poule is considered the best all around 12-pounder frigate. She has a nice balance of speed, maneuverability and firepower.

 

The Belle Poule is largely equivalent to the generic Frigate, having the same number of crew and guns, except the generic Frigate can carry 18-pounder guns on her lower deck One would think that this would be a major weakness, but the Belle Poule has more structure than the frigate does. Her hull shape, similar to the Renommee, makes shots seem to ricochet more off of her hull. The Belle Poule also seems to be one of the easiest frigates to sail, as she seems to be very forgiving while tacking.

 

(Emphasis by me)

 

So you see: it's the overall package that makes a ship desirable, not just it's "primary" specs.

Basically you have to do the same thing with ships in NA you would do when buying a car in rl: get all the info you can get and than test drive it.

 

Do people use belle poules with 12 pdrs? All I've seen are belle poules running the same 32lb carronades as frigate/essex/trincomalee etc.

 

Belle Poule has as good firepower and speed (roughly) as any other 5th rate plus a wide range of good secondary characteristics, hence popular ship (one of my favorites even). If it was slow or at a significant disadvantage in firepower that wouldn't be the case, all other good qualities notwithstanding.

 

Look, regarding important characteristics, you pick a type of ship because of it's speed, firepower or cargo capacity. Of course, if you are picking between two similar ships, there will be details of performance that make up your mind, but speed, firepower and cargo capacity are still the main reasons to pick say a frigate over a 4th rate, or an Indiaman over a frigate.

 

That's what I'm trying to apply here.

 

Brig is outclassed by Rattlesnake, Niagra and Mercury. So give it a good cargo capacity, suddenly the Brig is a useful ship.

 

Ingermanland vs Constitution as 4th rates, everyone picks Constitution because it has similar firepower and more speed. So change the choice to Trincomalee vs Ingermanland, and Constitution vs Bellona.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Alex Connor

[Jan van Santen]

Do people use belle poules with 12 pdrs? All I've seen are belle poules running the same 32lb carronades as frigate/essex/trincomalee etc.

 

Belle Poule has as good firepower and speed (roughly) as any other 5th rate plus a wide range of good secondary characteristics, hence popular ship (one of my favorites even). If it was slow or at a significant disadvantage in firepower that wouldn't be the case, all other good qualities notwithstanding.

 

Look, regarding important characteristics, you pick a type of ship because of it's speed, firepower or cargo capacity. Of course, if you are picking between two similar ships, there will be details of performance that make up your mind, but speed, firepower and cargo capacity are still the main reasons to pick say a frigate over a 4th rate, or an Indiaman over a frigate.

 

That's what I'm trying to apply here.

 

Brig is outclassed by Rattlesnake, Niagra and Mercury. So give it a good cargo capacity, suddenly the Brig is a useful ship.

 

Ingermanland vs Constitution as 4th rates, everyone picks Constitution because it has similar firepower and more speed. So change the choice to Trincomalee vs Ingermanland, and Constitution vs Bellona.

 

No, your attempt to reduce the choice of ships to just 3 attributes you call primary simply doesnt work....also your classification which attribute is primary, secondary etc. is questionable. For warships cargo isn't even secondary, it's tertiary, but turnrate is as important as speed....

 

I haven't even started mentioning wood, trim, upgrades and officer perk, which right now often are more important than the type of ship itself.

Next: howabout special purpose ships ? Gunboat, mortar brig, a ship w fireship upgrade... ?

 

And finally: Cargo makes an Indiaman superior to a Trader Brig ? But not if you want to trade with a shallow port....

 

Sry, the choice of ships or their classification in NA can't be reduced to just 3 paramteers. And thats good, because it adds variety and depth to the game !

Edited September 16, 2016 by Jan van Santen

[Alex Connor]

And finally: Cargo makes an Indiaman superior to a Trader Brig ? But not if you want to trade with a shallow port....

 

Sry, the choice of ships or their classification in NA can't be reduced to just 3 paramteers. And thats good, because it adds variety and depth to the game !

 

This is not a breakdown of every point of each ship, just the important reasons why you would choose one similarly sized ship over another for different jobs.

 

The Brig and the Niagara currently do the same job (warships you can sail at rank 3 and in shallow water) but the Niagara is better at that job. That makes the Brig useless. So we give the Brig another job, which is carrying cargo. With a reasonable defensive armament. Hey, now the Brig is useful, it can do something the Niagara can't. There is a reason to sail the Brig.

 

Some ships need that change in role to make them useful. Others simply need adjusting in price/dura so they are competing against a true rival instead of smaller weaker vessels.

 

Ingermanland for example, outclassed by the Constitution with it's equal firepower and greater speed. So we move the Ingermanland to compete with the Trincomalee instead, because that way one ship is faster and the other has more firepower, providing two equally valid warship choices for the cost.

 

 

No, your attempt to reduce the choice of ships to just 3 attributes you call primary simply doesnt work....also your classification which attribute is primary, secondary etc. is questionable. For warships cargo isn't even secondary, it's tertiary, but turnrate is as important as speed....

 

I haven't even started mentioning wood, trim, upgrades and officer perk, which right now often are more important than the type of ship itself.

 

All I'm going to say on this subject is PvPers don't fit for turnrate.

 

Officer, wood types etc apply to all vessels, hence irrelevant in a discussion of differences. 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

All ships are valid. Just not for all players.

 

I see where you want to go with this -but- I defend the designs. The Fair American is a generic one, same as the brig snow and any of the schooners, hence we have them in two design types. It is not the same ship at all.

 

It is also true that older designs of frigates and cruisers have been re-purposed for Indies careers as indiamen and guineamen, but we do not have that luxury in game.

[maturin]

All ships are valid. Just not for all players.

 

I see where you want to go with this -but- I defend the designs. The Fair American is a generic one, same as the brig snow and any of the schooners, hence we have them in two design types. It is not the same ship at all.

 

It is also true that older designs of frigates and cruisers have been re-purposed for Indies careers as indiamen and guineamen, but we do not have that luxury in game.

You're missing the point.

 

I don't think Alex started this thread to muse on characteristics in general.

 

 

The key point is that cargo capacity isn't remotely balanced in a logical or historical way. Niagara, for instance, shouldn't be able to fit any goods at all in that scanty hull.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Ah yes, true that and we've discussed it back in the thread when the cargo spaces were changed.

The cargo limits are greatly enhanced in traders and warships alike. LGV being an example, smuggler Cutter being another

 

P.S. - actually a trader Lynx could almost be seen as similar to a Lady Maryland. Although i'd like to see more individual designs.

[maturin]

 

 

Just because it is low side height doesn't mean it is a small ship. 

But Niagara is.

 

I don't know why you assume that I am talking out of my ass here. Niaraga is shoal-draft, even dangerously so. Shallow draft combined with a sharp-built hull invariably makes for a cramped hold. Most importantly of all, Niagara has no space aportioned for drinking water in her design (in the Great Lakes you just lower a bucket), meaning that in the Caribbean she would be extremely constrained in her operations.

 

Oh, and in practice the low freeboard also impacts hold space. The men can't sleep on the weather deck with the guns, and the lack of height necessary for a decent lower deck means that the hammocks are competing for space with the stores. A corvette with the same length as Niagara could fit both lower deck, upper deck and quarterdeck in those same dimensions. In other words, two whole decks devoted exclusively to guns on the one hand and men on the other. 

[Alex Connor]

Not suggesting many changes to ship stats, perhaps people are misunderstanding.

 

All I'm asking for is cargo capacity added to Brig, Snow, Lynx and Cutter, and perhaps some tuning of 1st rate handling. 

 

That and some changes in dura/cost of a few ships (Constitution/Agamemnon/Trincomalee/Essex).

 

 

The Brig, Snow, Lynx and Cutter are vessels meant to carry cargo that are being asked to compete with dedicated warships on firepower/speed. Naturally they aren't as good at being warships as the real thing, so these 4 ships aren't very popular.

 

1st rates largely handle the same, if that doesn't change the one with most firepower will always be more popular.

 

And last, ranking ships by their guncount will always be unfair to ships that pack a lot of firepower into a relatively small hull, so I'm suggesting that some of the biggest frigates get a price increase to put them into competition with 2 deckers of similar size.

[maturin]

Lynx is a smuggler, sacrificing everything for speed. I rather think that the hold would be small.

 

And this works in the game as well. People regard Tlynx as the least catchable vessel.

[Werewolf]

Interesting list, gives new players a good idea of which path to take in ship choices. Good job OP.