1st PvP Tournament Feedback Thread [Heavily Moderated]

[manuva85]

This things were bound to happen.... That is 1st ever tourney made by these guys so you shouldnt expect a perfect event... They will evolve the system and learn on mistakes( hopes are on )... + i find it funny that a lot of ppl are getting really personal. Chill out ... Vent inside be a gentelman outside....

[Dekillos]

Обращение в колегию судей турнира. Просьба разобраться с судьёй Hethwill и отстранить его от судейства в виду не спортивного поведения, а точнее подсужевания команде TDA на последних минутах боя. Слова о том, что "Wolf 13 уходил от боя" не имеют основания, потому-что экипажа у него хватало только на заделку пробоин и управлять кораблём он не мог. По результатам боя присудить победу RUS или переиграть бой с другим судьёй. С уважением.

 

Appeal to board of judges of a tournament. I ask to consider not sports behavior of the judge of Hethwill and to take measures. He was on the side of the TDA team. His statement that "Wolf 13 avoided fight" have no reasons. Wolf 13 could not steer the ship because all crew was busy with fight for survival. By results of fight to award a victory of RUS or to change fight with other judge. Sincerely.

Судья поправил время боя до 45 минут, если бы он это не сделал, то бой шел 44 минуты и тогда бы вы закончили на минуту раньше. Всё корректно.

 

if the match length was 45 minutes, I do not see any problems. Judge was right.

[Fargo]

In general im enjoying the tournament so far, huge compliment for the organisation!!

 

However, i think you shouldnt mind changing rules if they are conflicting with current game mechanics, in this case pumps making some kind of ships nearly unsinkable in time. Rules are the same for both sides so its not "unfair", but in the end every team will be pump and repair fitted cause it provides the best odds. Thats boring, we like to see fair pvp, not broken survival tactics and it might be most annoying for the teams themself, participating for good and fair pvp.

 

Yes teams should be able to win using the clock, but achieving this only by mods and perks and with ships already taking water has not much to do with skillbased pvp. Its not even possible to counter this effectively with grape or somehow. The TDA vs RUS match is a perfect example how only pumps could easily decide a match in favour of the "worse" playing team.

 

Its good that balancing issues got revealed now, but you should address them for the next stages of the tournament.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Fargo

[Llewellyn Jones RN]

In general im enjoying the tournament so far, huge compliment for the organisation!!

 

However, i think you shouldnt mind changing rules if they are conflicting with current game mechanics, in this case pumps making some kind of ships nearly unsinkable in time. Rules are the same for both sides so its not "unfair", but in the end every team will be pump and repair fitted cause it provides the best odds. Thats boring, we like to see fair pvp, not broken survival tactics and it might be most annoying for the teams themself, participating for good and fair pvp.

 

Yes teams should be able to win using the clock, but achieving this only by mods and perks and with ships already taking water has not much to do with skillbased pvp. Its not even possible to counter this effectively with grape or somehow. The TDA vs RUS match is a perfect example how only pumps could easily decide a match in favour of the "worse" playing team.

 

Its good that balancing issues got revealed now, but you should address them for the next stages of the tournament.

To be honest if someone is using pumps and pump perk it will mean you will have to make sure he sinks rather than leaving it to time.

[Molon_Labe13966]

I checked the timers before I went to bed last night, to make sure everything was fair. I did it via the chat messages in battle, when judge said go to when he said stop, and came up with 1-2 minutes with a window of 30 or more seconds because the chat time does not have seconds displayed. I might have made a mistake on my part because I was bone tired, so if someone else comes up with different times, they are probably more accurate. And just for everyone here, this is why I delegated this stuff, because I am bad at organizing stuff. 

[Fargo]

To be honest if someone is using pumps and pump perk it will mean you will have to make sure he sinks rather than leaving it to time.

 

How can you make sure he sinks? The RUS Essex got graped down to 70 crew and did not sink, shooting leaks when the ship is already lower in the water might not work either. 

[Lord Vicious]

I runned some tests and essex have something wrong regards how much water it takes,  at same condition of a trinco (no back no 1 side no front 40% armor it can almost float 4 ever while a trinco slowly even standing still get +1 sourvival crew every 30 sec so max 6-8 mins you are done)  the essex can stay afloat pretty much indefinitively 20mins +   (of course  both ships where liveoak stifness gold pump, pump perk, and extra planking +steel tool box and carpenter )

 

let me explain better

 

 

look tda match vs rus  an essex almost completely destroyer and with only 70 crew then even less manage to stay afloat for like 10 mins,  while a trincomalee with no back-front and no 1 side max stay afloat for 4-5 mins even standing still and with 300 crew and i am talking with golden pump and pump perk.

 

 

This difference invalide the fight let me explain why,      look sorry match, we manage to destroy our enemy much before they melted our armor, we moved and focused them better     but they manage to stay afloat for 10-15mins (henry even 20 mins) with almost totally no armor.   Giving them chance to do same on us, and when that happened on us we could not stay afloat as much.    So shooting moving better focusing better etc matters much less then an essex with a pump combination

 

So essex have something wrong regards how much water it can bail out compared to other frigs.  even a cerb a surprise sink wayy faster.   Imho dev need to check whats wrong with the essex

[Lord Vicious]

maybe he saw his mistake that he calculated the ending time wrong ?

 

yes but player play accordingly to what he said so rus where fine to stay near cause timer Heatwhill said, then he added 1 min, and that fuckedup rus strategy  sorry but players action also reflect judge decisions and viceversa.   Rus where confident to continue with their strategy with the timer Hetwhill told them  then he added another min. wich is first of all a very unfair move since is first time that happen in the tournament, sorry where 1 min away from win vs slrn and we not got +1min.     2nd a very bad call becouse that invalidate player tactics  in favour of a team or another.  and 3rd it create a precedent where a judge decision changed a match results wich is not properly a good thing for a pvp tournament.

 

son in my opinion there is 2 solutions but that brings other problems

 

1) rematch , then many teams include mine will ask rematch becouse we got similar situation and we not got extra time

2) stick to judge FIRST decision and RUS won  (even if TDA imho won the engagement like sorry won vs SLRN and LG if not was for timer rule, is not funny anymore  when not happen at sorry only eh?)

[Dekillos]

yes but player play accordingly to what he said so rus where fine to stay near cause timer Heatwhill said, then he added 1 min, and that fuckedup rus strategy  sorry but players action also reflect judge decisions and viceversa.   Rus where confident to continue with their strategy with the timer Hetwhill told them  then he added another min. wich is first of all a very unfair move since is first time that happen in the tournament, sorry where 1 min away from win vs slrn and we not got +1min.     2nd a very bad call becouse that invalidate player tactics  in favour of a team or another.  and 3rd it create a precedent where a judge decision changed a match results wich is not properly a good thing for a pvp tournament.

 

son in my opinion there is 2 solutions but that brings other problems

 

1) rematch , then many teams include mine will ask rematch becouse we got similar situation and we not got extra time

2) stick to judge FIRST decision and RUS won  (even if TDA imho won the engagement like sorry won vs SLRN and LG if not was for timer rule, is not funny anymore  when not happen at sorry only eh?)

1. I think RUS had no tactics in the end and if match was over before 45 min, TDA rightly can asked for rematch.

2. if tournament would not have timers rules, we would see a completely different fight situation, tactics and fiting setups.

[Johny Reb]

Hethwell is a "judge" meaning he has authority to make judgments which in my opinion would include timers. I would validate an opinion that claims that players play different if they think the game is over in 30 seconds vs 3 minutes but in this tourny aren't all players supposed to stay in combat unless for a tactical retreat to regroup?

 

If there are going to be timers in future events then I would change it in the following way...  Make it a 45 minute fight but if at the end of that fight no ship has sunk then the match is extended to "sudden death." The first ship to sink ends the match.

 

I think the essex vs trinc sinking concern is irrelevant accept for testing purposes. Every team has equal choice of ships and if one team recognizes the difference between the two, then more power to them. Thats part of the skill or luck.

 

Its unfortunate that Hethwill miscalculated but we can see that his change was within the intention of the match time.

 

They could always have their rematch on the OS

[Lord Vicious]

Some of the test that show why trinco where sinking invalidating superior focus-tactics, manouvering.  we where able to shoot down our enemy hp much before them but they could not sink at equal conditions. So this essex ability to bail out water in a crazy way compared to other ships invalidate the work of superior teams to focus down and destroy enemy ships, since they still float while you cant so they have all the time to recover the hp gap and then wait for you to sink.

 

You can see that expecial in sorry vs slrn, where they clearly lost all their hp much before us, and on tda match vs rus where an essex refused to sink for 20 mins even with 70 crew only

 

 

both ships are liveoak stifness, extra planking,  with pump inventor perk, gold pump, etc

 

ESSEX AFTER 5 MIN

 

TRINCOMALEE AFTER 5 MIN

 

ESSEX AFTER 10 MIN

 

TRINCOMALEE AFTER 10 MIN

[Llewellyn Jones RN]

So the Essex is bugged which means forthwith it should be banned in this tournament.

[Dekillos]

So the Essex is bugged which means forthwith it should be banned in this tournament.

With new rules planking is not important now.

And if you have time, test frigate and belle poule please

Edited September 3, 2016 by Dekillos

[Johny Reb]

I don't know if the ship was built as expected or not. I don't know if its bugged or not. I don't know if it needs to be balanced or not. What I do know is that each ship has its positives and negatives. In this case we see a lesser armed ship that can actually be superior to a heavier ship because its ability to bail water is superior. That may be a very good reason to use this ship. I like it in that its not simple dps and maneuverability to be considered.

[Lord Vicious]

With new rules planking is not important now.

And if you have time, test frigate and belle poule please

will do

I don't know if the ship was built as expected or not. I don't know if its bugged or not. I don't know if it needs to be balanced or not. What I do know is that each ship has its positives and negatives. In this case we see a lesser armed ship that can actually be superior to a heavier ship because its ability to bail water is superior. That may be a very good reason to use this ship. I like it in that its not simple dps and maneuverability to be considered.

 

 

sorry but a ship who have no back armor no front no right side and  20% on 1 side with 70 crew who stay afloat for 10mins (see tda match vs rus) is wrong unbalanced and unbelivable in a game that is supposed to be historical, or do you know ships able to stay afloat with only 1 side? i dont.  doesnt matter how peculiar you wanna make it.       

[Lord Vicious]

Hethwell is a "judge" meaning he has authority to make judgments which in my opinion would include timers. I would validate an opinion that claims that players play different if they think the game is over in 30 seconds vs 3 minutes but in this tourny aren't all players supposed to stay in combat unless for a tactical retreat to regroup?

 

If there are going to be timers in future events then I would change it in the following way...  Make it a 45 minute fight but if at the end of that fight no ship has sunk then the match is extended to "sudden death." The first ship to sink ends the match.

 

I think the essex vs trinc sinking concern is irrelevant accept for testing purposes. Every team has equal choice of ships and if one team recognizes the difference between the two, then more power to them. Thats part of the skill or luck.

 

Its unfortunate that Hethwill miscalculated but we can see that his change was within the intention of the match time.

 

They could always have their rematch on the OS

 

no and that show how low is your knowledge, players in this tournament can run try avoiding fight becouse they scored a kill and wanna make time go over and keep that kill not giving other team opportunity to fight. thats the issue, in fact rus was tryng to stay afloat becouse they scored a bigger br kill then tda even if  their ships where almost going to sink, but time went over. and RUS won 

[Markcufc]

Remove the timer, stupid idea to have such a short time of battle for such events. 

[OlavDeng2]

Hello gentlemen, There has been a slight revision in timers giving everyone somewhat more time, From this point on every match will last untill the timer says 00:30 (so 30minutes left) in the tournament room

[Niels Terkildsen]

Sounds good. More time will enable more tactics. Brawls are well and all, but I think long gun usage should be viable, and it really wasn't with the 45 minute limit.

[Johny Reb]

 

sorry but a ship who have no back armor no front no right side and  20% on 1 side with 70 crew who stay afloat for 10mins (see tda match vs rus) is wrong unbalanced and unbelivable in a game that is supposed to be historical, or do you know ships able to stay afloat with only 1 side? i dont.  doesnt matter how peculiar you wanna make it.       

Except that "armor" in this game is an abstraction and there are other things to consider. The lack of side armor does not mean that the ship has no sides. I'm not, technically, in opposition to what you are saying. I'm just suggesting that there are multiple historical factors to be considered and ways of balancing a ship to make it unique. Should those factors be applied to the Essex? The ship probably needs to be tweaked but it does not need to match the sink rate of a trinc.

 

no and that show how low is your knowledge, players in this tournament can run try avoiding fight becouse they scored a kill and wanna make time go over and keep that kill not giving other team opportunity to fight. thats the issue, in fact rus was tryng to stay afloat becouse they scored a bigger br kill then tda even if  their ships where almost going to sink, but time went over. and RUS won 

I must admit I have yet to watch the two fights that we have been discussing. I'm in the airport and the internet is poor for streaming so I don't. I lack the patience. I will watch it in the next day or two. That being said, in the tourny rules it states that you can't run and in at least one fight I watched Hethwell order a team back into the fight because they retreated for two long. If that happened in this fight then the same thing should have happened.

 

This is all good stuff. So far, I think the tourny is coming off fantastically but here we are finding ways to improve it. Thats good isn't it? If I have a disagreement with you in anything it is simply that the Essex is an unfair ship in the tourny because everyone has the choice to use it or not. The balancing of it should be in the testing thread as opposed to this one, don't you think?

[Snoopy]

I think Vicious has a point.

Without planking ("armor") the Essex has 8-10 minutes of what is effectively complete invulnerability and god mode.

You can do a lot of damage during this time where nothing the enemy team can do will harm you (putting more broadsides into the 0 armor side has no effect) and afterwards you can simply repair up and do it all over again.

I think that this is such an outlier that until fixed the Essex needs to be retired from the tournament.

If not, well I will be sailing one then

[Prater]

I think Vicious has a point.

Without planking ("armor") the Essex has 8-10 minutes of what is effectively complete invulnerability and god mode.

You can do a lot of damage during this time where nothing the enemy team can do will harm you (putting more broadsides into the 0 armor side has no effect) and afterwards you can simply repair up and do it all over again.

I think that this is such an outlier that until fixed the Essex needs to be retired from the tournament.

If not, well I will be sailing one then

People who do this against TDA find out the hard way that is how you lose all your crew. We can then go to the non damaged side, sure, take one broadside, but then stay along side destroying that side without taking further damage because they can't reload their guns.

[Llewellyn Jones RN]

With new rules planking is not important now.And if you have time, test frigate and belle poule please

I didn't say anything about planking, if as Lord Visious says which I have no doubt he tested extensively the exceptional pump with pump specialist perk on an Essex means it will stay afloat for longer than it reasonably would. Now I understand that different ships have different sinking properties but most ships in this game will stay afloat for 5 to 10 mins not 20 mins as described by Lord V with little water in the bilges.

[Dekillos]

I didn't say anything about planking, if as Lord Visious says which I have no doubt he tested extensively the exceptional pump with pump specialist perk on an Essex means it will stay afloat for longer than it reasonably would. Now I understand that different ships have different sinking properties but most ships in this game will stay afloat for 5 to 10 mins not 20 mins as described by Lord V with little water in the bilges.

 

both ships are liveoak stifness, extra planking,  with pump inventor perk, gold pump, etс

Essex without planking cannt survive without one side. I think frigate have same characteristics with extra planking and second pump. We need ban frigate too

 

If not, well I will be sailing one then

You can try but RUS lost two matches using this tactics.

[Lord Vicious]

People who do this against TDA find out the hard way that is how you lose all your crew. We can then go to the non damaged side, sure, take one broadside, but then stay along side destroying that side without taking further damage because they can't reload their guns.

 

Not always you are able to keep stay on their empty side, or in range with caronades for graping, they can  focus fire one guy kill him then "avoid" to fight for a long time manouvering avoiding to be graped.  You see that yourself in TDA match  essex was afloat with even 20 crew for 4-5 mins.  even with you graping it

 

I understand ships need to be different, but one thing is have a ship 10 20% better at baile out water, another is have a ship unsinkable where all others sink at same conditions. that invalide all manouvering and focusing etc.   Look first 20 min of sorry match vs slrn, we totally owned them.  Then they needed 10 min for recover what we did to them using the essex inability to sink.  In fact sorry would have scored 3 victory and all 9 enemy kills if not was vs essex teams  who not only used this essex loltastic setup but also runned avoiding fights going for another loltastic thing the timer at 45.     At end  in our group we   have scored more kills then team 3 and 4 conbined and still more kills then team 1. So tournament not premiate who kill more, but who baile out  (both water and fight)  the real SORRY team score with current new timer and maybe not superbugged essex would have been 8 kills and 3 victory