Pirate, Independent or Outlaw. What am I?

[Skully]

In my opinion all three are the same. That is from a game mechanic perspective.

From a playstyle perspective all three might be different.

A Pirate might be part of Clan that raids outposts.

An Independent might farm some Tobacco plantations for a profit.

An Outlaw seeks out lone Traders to rob.

But it all boils down to what kind of play does the player want. He will then choose his destiny and move forward. Up until the point where his path is blocked.

Today I'm a Large Carriage crafter, tomorrow a Tobacco Trader and the day after a Privateer.

Tried Treasure Hunter for a day, didn't like the competition.

I like my freedom of choice.

What should such a block look like? Game mechanic or a reachable objective?

If it were game mechanic, then the only option is quit the game. An outcome we never want to see.

So it must always be, reachable objective.

From that point on you only need to ask yourself, can I ... ?

So at the end, the game should give players options, not limitations. And then it only becomes a matter of "are you unwilling or incapable of playing the game?"

Lets look at the current state of Pirates, what is good:

Can I be part of a Clan? Yes.

Can I build plantations? Yes.

Can I hit lone traders? Yes.

Can I attack every National? Yes.

Can I be attacked by any National? Yes.

Can I be part of a National Parliament? No. Which is good, because allegiance should not go beyond Clan.

Can I attack my clan mates? No. Which is good, because we want to limit damage farming as much as possible.

What is bad:

Can I attack other Pirates? No. It is an unfortunate "bug". If I can attack other Clans then this would be solved.

Can I build 3rd Rate and up? Yes. Pirates/Outlaws/Independents should not be able to build such large ships, if you want that follow a different destiny path (see below).

Then there is some grey area:

Can I be part of a Town Council? Yes, but only in an Independent Town by having buildings. Not being a Lord Protector or Aristocracy by Port Battle.

Can I do Port Battles then? Yes, but as part of a raid.

I want to revisit this, because both holding land and raiding should be playstyles allowed within Independents/Pirates.

If we define the farmer (/ building owner) as part of the Town Council, then we have effectively closed the loop towards the Road of Independence.

Hethwill can join the raid after which the town becomes an independent town and anybody can put up a building to assert control. A Nation could even lose the raid, but by rebuilding the town reacquire it. Or Independents can take control and reinstate their precious Capital they lost earlier.

I see a story that can move on for all parties involved.

So what if I don't like the Independents? What if I like building SOLs? Where do I go? You go National.

Like we had the going to Black, we should have a destiny path leading back to (any) Nationality.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14574-curing-the-black-plague-bug/

How to go National? For this I will propose an integrate mechanic, might look complex, but is really based on logic and player behavior.

In essence, if you have enough Allies in the Nation you want to be in, then you can be invited through a National edict to come over.

At the end, I think it is important to stop thinking of the current Pirates as true Pirates.

True Pirates are Hethwill and Pegan Pete who play it out as such. And the game simply provides.

The true purpose of this Sandbox game is providing everybody (or at least as many as possible ) with the means to play out their style against the historical background of the West Indies.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Skully

[Powderhorn]

You are scum to be hanged by the closest Vice Admiralty Court, of course

Pirates have looooong been a contentious issue, but, a few points: Your independents sound like they need to be Nationals. Land ownership is a function of governments, otherwise it is merely might makes right. It is one thing to illegally harvest timber, it is quite another to plant and harvest cash crops.

That said, you argue for two styles of piracy - clan-based, and solo-based.

Clan-based piracy can further be broken down into two groups: Those that wish to hold territories, and those that wish to merely raid. Those that wish to merely raid are essentially the same as solo-pirates: True "outlaws." They are "outside the law."

Those that wish to hold territories are NOT outlaws, in being "outside the law," rather, they merely wish to establish NEW laws. These can be addressed by Revolutionary Charters. These clans are essentially attempting to make their own nation-states. (Revolutionary Charters might be beyond this game, however.)

So then you have three groups: Independents who are really nationals that simply do not feel the burden of the law (either through distance or the inapplicability of those laws), groups which seek to establish new governments, and true outlaws.

The first we have, the third is, I believe, coming, and the second we can hope for.

[Skully]

So then you have three groups: Independents who are really nationals that simply do not feel the burden of the law (either through distance or the inapplicability of those laws), groups which seek to establish new governments, and true outlaws.

The first we have, the third is, I believe, coming, and the second we can hope for.

For the first you imply I can attack any other Clan, which simply isn't the case.

[Powderhorn]

If you are attacking any other clan, you are not an Independent. You are operating outside the Law of Nations, and are an outlaw.

An Independent, as I read you, wouldn't attack anyone at all, and would just want to be left alone so he or she can farm in peace.

[Skully]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States

[Powderhorn]

I'm not sure the purpose of your link. That's Option #2 of my original list.

[Skully]

And I'm saying they are all the same, they don't need separate mechanics.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Nationals can act independent privateers and do pretty much what "true pirates" do and attack the enemies designated by the Nation.

If they do not "agree" with their employer, they can go Pirate or simply get diluted into the general population.

 

What I'd see is Neutrals coming back as a multinational West India Company of sorts and "forcing" economy to run through them, both with NPCs taking care of deliveries contracted by players, be it by playing the true merchants of sorts. Basically something along the lines of the complete opposite of Pirates.

[Skully]

Found a document recently which also tries to shed light into the matter:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_Lch0M7RFs7MlpWRWR6MkhnUlU/view

"Cementing their hold on the

region, “pirate agents had infiltrated certain government yamen as well” meaning that “some of

the pirates' strongest allies were the very officials charged with suppression.”"

"The group of piratical States had the substantial support of the

Ottoman Porte."

"It was actually the island off the east coast of Africa, Madagascar, that served as the pirate's

principle base."

"Pirates then merely did what any Stateless people do: Try to

create local order without concern for any outside the immediate circle."

It would appear that these Stateless people did have holdings of some sort.

So maybe Independents is the wrong word, but rather Stateless.

[Powderhorn]

I might not have insight into the authors' thoughts, but I believe the "local order" the author referred to was within the ship, rather than a territory.

The issues of Chinese & Ottoman piracy don't lend themselves to owning territory, particularly farmland. One was a mafia-style, the other was merely state-sponsored.

This leaves Madagascar, a tricky subject filled with as much fiction as fact, perhaps even more. Fortifications, we can treat as simple extensions of the ship - it was not private property, after all, and certainly not farmed.

That leaves the question of private property in Madagascar, or, more specifically, did pirates set up long-term farming operations on that island?

I don't believe there were historic examples of this, but my references are at home, where I am not. However, I argue I do not need them. Once you are doing long-term farming, you are no longer a pirate. At best you are a settler or squatter.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Ottoman influenced barbary privateering was good business. As much as 1600's privateering was good business for european powers other than spain.

 

Madagascar/Ile de France was simply a respite point to take water and food and eventual ad-hoc repairs. Although Libertalia is a fiction story, the island was indeed used and misused for centuries. Surcouf himself operating from there and the corsair base being a hard nut to crack.

 

There are no direct primary activity economies in piracy ( mining, farming etc ), except the Baymen but they are a by product of old buccaneers turned into smuggling - they would sell the wood to England and France 10 times lower than the Spanish did before they established their camps.

[Skully]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_the_Caribbean

"Although some piracy would always remain until the mid-18th century, the path to wealth in the Caribbean in the future lay through peaceful trade, the growing of tobacco, rice and sugar and smuggling to avoid the British Navigation Acts and Spanish mercantilist laws."

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15026-pvp1-july-tobbies-tobacco-imperium/

We can debate history left or right. But do we want a game that is interesting for players to play, or one for historians to re-enact the West Indies?

Edited August 31, 2016 by Skully

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Yes. Old pirate mechanics discussion all over again

 

Free of tax communities were accused of piracy after the changes in the Piracy Act. They were not pirates though.

 

Hell, even sailors in the navies and merchant ships could be accused of piracy ( by the Piracy Act ) if they refused or impeded the proper combat against a pirate attack... so...

 

... everyone that runs away from pirates in game is a pirate ?!...

 

[Mrdoomed]

As much as i HATE owing a sol and wish pirates did not have to use them i cant currently support anything that keeps pirates from making them.

My reason is this. Im a pirate on pvp2 and i do my best ( with a small clan of outlaws) to hit targets of opportunity. Whether its a trade ship or a small warship that looks easy to take ( since warships make great transports for expensive goods now) and the players rank does not matter only the ease of capture and profit matter. If you are a low level in a lgv then im not going to spare you or if you are a rear admiral in a cutter ( who could be using this fast free ship to move crafting notes) i will take you if you look profitable.

I dont attack low levels in cutters or lynx as i assume they have little value ( unless you act like an alt) but everyone else is considered prey to me.

This attitude has made me probably one of the most hated pirates on the server ( according to friend in US and BRITISH chat) that as soon as im spotted the call goes out to kill me. Im ok with this but unfortunately over time my enemy has learned my hideouts and quite often has 1st rates or fleets of ships keeping me from sailing from any outpost ( due to teleport ) so i am forced to bring out a sol to fight them in order to get out.

Without having access to line ships and no limit to nations lineships it wouls only be a matter of time before all pirates are forced to stay in port. Thats not historical or fun.

[Skully]

Yes. Old pirate mechanics discussion all over again

 

Free of tax communities were accused of piracy after the changes in the Piracy Act. They were not pirates though.

 

Hell, even sailors in the navies and merchant ships could be accused of piracy ( by the Piracy Act ) if they refused or impeded the proper combat against a pirate attack... so...

 

... everyone that runs away from pirates in game is a pirate ?!...

 

Bang, right on the nail.

 

It is close to impossible to classify the group. Any name we give them is one that already has a different meaning.

 

Yet from the perspective of the game, they are all the same. They are without Nation, without such benefits.

 

However they can still become Nationalists (again). Or be hanged, depending on which time period and which history book.

Without having access to line ships and no limit to nations lineships it wouls only be a matter of time before all pirates are forced to stay in port. Thats not historical or fun.

That is the whole point, which we have kind of proven the last weeks on PvP1. If Nations organize, then there is no place to run anymore.

But this is a good thing. It is the job of Nations to eradicate these groups (or incorporate ).

The ultimate freedom comes at a price and you should be prepared to fight for it with the limited means available.

(Or die trying, or run and hide somewhere else.)

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

The true ally of piracy, in-game, is the egocentric nature of greed of the "solo play" of - I want, I need.

 

Better to lose 1 hour and wait for a willing buddy to escort than to venture on your own and lose: all the LH you wasted on that harvest and the harvest itself.

 

Solo pvp is never solo. And Murphy's Law is real no matter how hard you Pray.

[Mrdoomed]

Bang, right on the nail.

It is close to impossible to classify the group. Any name we give them is one that already has a different meaning.

Yet from the perspective of the game, they are all the same. They are without Nation, without such benefits.

However they can still become Nationalists (again). Or be hanged, depending on which time period and which history book.

That is the whole point, which we have kind of proven the last weeks on PvP1. If Nations organize, then there is no place to run anymore.

But this is a good thing. It is the job of Nations to eradicate these groups (or incorporate ).

The ultimate freedom comes at a price and you should be prepared to fight for it with the limited means available.

(Or die trying, or run and hide somewhere else.)

I have zero problem with that if we do away with the other not true to life problems we face such as teleport machines, telephones, teamspeak and a global chat function. Not to mention how the can recognize me witbout seeing my face.

I dont make the rules im just trying to play by them and whats fair is fair

[Skully]

I have zero problem with that if we do away with the other not true to life problems we face such as teleport machines, telephones, teamspeak and a global chat function. Not to mention how the can recognize me witbout seeing my face.

I dont make the rules im just trying to play by them and whats fair is fair

I've already said teleportation:

The only form of ship teleportation that could make sense is empty traders.

Teleporting warships (or sending them via warp) means a deterioration of the strategical aspects of Open World, so that should definitely go.

But an empty trader is something that holds little interest to either side. In fact if that becomes the norm (which it already was) it makes any trader on Open World be a more valuable target.

The trader is moving for a reason, so go after it!

And

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14416-crew-management-update-discussion/?p=268614

There is nothing to be gained by removing instant avatar-TP. You are just luring yourself into a false sense of security.

What do you do when you are in an outpost where no action is and you are on a 1 hour or 4 hour timer? You quit or change to your alt.

The false sense of security was gained, because we have a low player base. In a normal or high player base, the enemy would simply call for assets to be committed towards you commanded by other players (/alts).

A player waiting on a timer, is a player not providing content.

[edit] forgot the alt bit, because that was really what was the killer

Telephones, teamspeak and a global chat are a fact of life. If you don't like how MMO's truly work, then there is little that can be done.

Fair is providing everyone the same tools, means and options. Although Pirates are (/will/should be) balanced asymmetrically a players path should always have the option to move in or out of this (at a cost though / with a goal to attain).

[Powderhorn]

How would you go about making a meaningful pardon system?  I think, ultimately, that's what you're driving at, which isn't a horrible idea.  The question is how to make it mean something.  Cash option is (as we've seen) pretty meaningless.  XP loss seems unnecessarily punishing.  Outposts are merely a flavor of cash option.

 

Edit:  BTW, you forgot to mention, when referencing that article, how intelligent, wise, and good looking the author is

[Skully]

How would you go about making a meaningful pardon system?

First we need to deal with another step: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/16218-voting-power-politics/

Ultimately it is the political power of alliances that dictate whether you can become a true vassal.

PS. I want to thank the brilliant, intelligent, wise and potentially good looking author of the "Stateless Men: An Examination of Historical Piracy" essay. I'll leave it up to Anne to judge the good looking part.

[IndianaGeoff]

Maybe instead of a special national Pirate ship they get a very expensive (as expensive as crafting a ship) way of restoring a ships durability once and/or upgrading it's quality level one level.  It would be a one time pirate conversion not something they could do over and over on a ship.  That way they can capture a ship, take it to a janky Pirate port and fix it up.  That is they way they get any ship from frigate and above instead of crafting.  It would also give them a premium on fighting together to take over a ship one of them needs.

[Skully]

How would you go about making a meaningful pardon system?  I think, ultimately, that's what you're driving at, which isn't a horrible idea.  The question is how to make it mean something. Cash option is (as we've seen) pretty meaningless. XP loss seems unnecessarily punishing. Outposts are merely a flavor of cash option.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/16296-pardoning-a-pirate-coming-back-to-graces-the-path-of-redemption/

As for the meaning, it means the stories can continue. At the end Character XP is more about asserting you know the game, Gold & Outposts are material values which can be lost through Season End.

[Sir Texas Sir]

Can we get some more info on these OUTLAWs and when this will be put into play?  We got a few players right now on every one's black list we would love to sink on sight.   I swear we got one guy that some are about ready to take a ban from the game just to sink him and keep him out of port battles and other actions.