Fastidius Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 The problem I have is there is not clearly defined idea about what ship combat should be about. This is what i think...you may vary but when it comes to decision making this is what my outcomes are ideally In a ship battle the outcome of sinking the ship is a loss to both sides. no goods are transferred and gold for damage is a easy fix mechanic that is only there because the devs didn't want to deal with the economy early in the game. Now with crew loss people should be starting to realise this however gold for damage is still too extreme i think and is still outweighing the losses or the free crew mechanic is too high and making it irrelevant. obviously if there are fleet vs fleets the more you cap the better so some sinks = good to make it possible. In a port battle the port is the final goal so sinking ships is acceptable in this case HOWEVER i still think boarding is preferable if possible. The issue we have with the design at the moment is boarding is a gear check and people think that sinking ships is a good thing. It is clearly an issue with the message from kill and damage gold. Unlike say WOT or AW where you are fighting over land constantly NA is more about asset acquisition...unfortunately assets are undervalued (duros, cheap greys, golden showers, gold for damage, Gold for labour hours) Skully and I have talked about all these things many times and the reality is there is very few ways to get hurt in the game so the emotional cost and as such the feeling of risk/reward is minimal. The only reason to play for a lot of us is to see salty tears and grow our epeens. That is what PVP is all about. The economics side of the game is FUBAR at the moment and devs don't care about it, hopefully thats a YET situation. Yes the ships are pretty and i can appreciate it but the game side of things is about dominance. There are underlying issues with the messaging from devs and the patching regarding it. Can the developers please advise as to what they think the goals of ship battles are in regards to capture vs sinking and if boarding is an intended goal why they are not hotfixing or adjusting things in patched re mods/mechanics. yes you changed things recently but it isnt what we would call working right and whats your view on it. 5
DeRuyter Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 FUBAR, Only aussie will get that LOL. Actually it was used by US troops in WWII so not just Aussies m8 2
Atreides Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 WOFTAM... Heh had to look that up. I disagree though and think this game is awesome, and am looking forward to the development process, it's awkward and stumbles now and then, but the parts that are polished are fantastic. I recognize the shortcomings of some of the mechanics, and may disagree with some of the tweaks and changes. But this game is better by far than several "finished" games I have played, even with the pimples, clumsiness and long hair of a "adolescent" game. 1
BallsOfSteel Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 No the game still has bugs the biggest ones are supposedly being dealt with including the under priced contract bug which is just plain destroying trading. I hope there even a campaign style eventually for those to try as the combat is pretty good, economy needs work and trading simply just not fun at the moment. WOFTAM just another shortening to describe a lot of thing in the Army.
Chimera Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 Why are you do eager to make boarding the key mechanic? I believe a lot of us are more than happy with sinking... 1
Fastidius Posted August 31, 2016 Author Posted August 31, 2016 Why are you do eager to make boarding the key mechanic? I believe a lot of us are more than happy with sinking... I think it is the transaction that makes sense as to actually gain something. Engaging in combat should have a goal...if that is sinking then thats fine. I just want their view on what we should be doing. Historically boarding was a big thing. It has been said gold for damage was not meant to be a long term thing by admins..... so theres a few reason.....theres more but i would like to know how the devs perceive it.
Hethwill, the Red Duke Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 Despite the "reward" system the objective is always what the player(s) set themselves to. Historically, statistics definitely show a chasm between the surrender and the boarding attacks. We can still consider anchorage line cuts as boardings and still it wouldn't outweight the amount of shps striking colors. I say leave the option to the players. Have the Admiralty assign reward for victory / gallantry regarding BR. BR should be thought of as a "admiralty coin", the currency of war operations. The more BR difference the bigger/less rewards involved. Damage done is only valuable if a victory is achieved. This brings all mechanics to play - proper OW tag, proper gallant engagement and a decisive finale - as opposite to half baked tags and running battles just because it is the norm and there's always something out of it.
Chimera Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 (edited) I think it is the transaction that makes sense as to actually gain something. Engaging in combat should have a goal...if that is sinking then thats fine. I just want their view on what we should be doing. Historically boarding was a big thing. It has been said gold for damage was not meant to be a long term thing by admins..... so theres a few reason.....theres more but i would like to know how the devs perceive it. But gameplay wise it's just not fun. And I'm not only talking about the mini game here.If you need the devs to tell you what to do to have fun, maybe a sandbox isn't the right game for you ? Edited August 31, 2016 by Chimera 1
admin Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 On the advantage of firing low coming from this book https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=_5gtAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=treatise+on+gunnery&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjchu-wht_OAhUDBywKHXYtDY8Q6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=treatise%20on%20gunnery&f=false We believe its a captain choice to sink or to board. With the only problem - its impossible (very hard) to make a good cheat proof sword fighting game in a multiplayer environment. Boarding is inadequate - thats why captains prefer to fire low . We are working on the test version of the new boarding (with units on deck and deeper positioning) but do not know if it will work yet. Once we do it it will become less a gear check - you will be able to barricade on quarterdeck fighting against overwhelming forces easier. 7
Cmdr RideZ Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 I agree that the clear focus is missing from the development. Boarding is broken, and the rest is well done. So do I want this to be about boarding? Removing boarding from the game is just fine to me, just because it has been implemented so bad. I do not personally have any good advice how to improve boarding. It looks dull, and it is that as well, especially when compared to the rest of the combat. So for now, I think that sinking should be the primary way of doing it. May not be that realistic, but it is fun and skill based. At the moment there are multiple broken things in the combat. Boarding is so broken that wont start to even say anything about it. Balancing balls, chains and grapes, should be one of the main targets. This as well includes the hull, crew, sails and modules. Right now, imo, grapes are devastating. Probably should include something like, less crew the ship has, smaller change there is to kill a crew member. So by shooting the crew, you make the ship less functional, but killing all with grapes, should take long time. Also the deck should provide some cover for the crew. Probably would be ok, that the armor should be 1st decreased some before the grapes start to do damage, even if the grapes would directly hit the deck. Chains.. Frigates really feel the difference when the sails are ripped. SOLs could be broken atm, their sail % does not affect enough to their handling. I think this issue came with the new physics model, that is taking on account things like water and improved how the wind works, etc. Chains are doing damage, but sail % does not affect enough how ships maneuver. Balls.. Not using these that much anymore. Something is broken I would say. Why to shoot the hull, when the crew dies way faster? Ball, Chains, Grapes... Notice that firing chains is relatively easy, as the target is big, and it has 0 armor. Grapes, do the same, the armor has nothing to do with the damage. Balls? The only one that actually has something to do with sailing well or not so well. I agree still that stern camping with grapes is also sailing, but you can basically just hit the deck with those to get the same results. Balls might be the only ammunition type that actually measures the sailing skills. Leaks? You have been watching the tournaments, I would say that are broken for sure. In one OW battle one Trinco got +30 leaks, and did not go even low. Could there be something broken here as well? LO, Oak, Teak, Fir... I think the balance between these should be checked as well. Multiple "broken" upgrades. Upgrades that are not even close as useful as others. Perks, well, this is another big subject to balance. And more they add, harder it gets to balance it. Create a new account, check how easy it is actually to start making money. It is not that easy btw. Now that you already have money it is pretty easy, but in the early game it is not. The crew is punishing too much the new players. I know players who are casual, they have hard time making money. They do not use exploits like capping AI 1st rates one after another. Maybe "I win" boarding is a reason to this issues as well, or part of it. If a new player loses a ship 1 or 2 times, high change that forces him to do trade. Yes, it hurts a new player to lose a ship. I think, that there has to be also fun factor in the game. Punishing too much will just make the people to leave. Think about WOT, War Thunder or MWO. No risk to lose anything, fast instant battles. Some of my friends quit the NA, at least for now, because they are not that interested to sail in OW and trade, and more left after crew costs came in the game. Do not want the game to be like WOT, just saying that punishing too much wont be fun -> Player base gets even smaller.
Cmdr RideZ Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 Damage done is only valuable if a victory is achieved. This brings all mechanics to play... We both understand that this would be more a problem for new players than for the more experienced ones? What is realistic, may not always be playable, fun.
Cmdr RideZ Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 ...We are working on the test version of the new boarding (with units on deck and deeper positioning) but do not know if it will work yet. Once we do it it will become less a gear check - you will be able to barricade on quarterdeck fighting against overwhelming forces easier. Sounds very nice. Definitely waiting for this. 1
admin Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 Chains.. Frigates really feel the difference when the sails are ripped. SOLs could be broken atm, their sail % does not affect enough to their handling. I think this issue came with the new physics model, that is taking on account things like water and improved how the wind works, etc. Chains are doing damage, but sail % does not affect enough how ships maneuver. Balls.. Not using these that much anymore. Something is broken I would say. Why to shoot the hull, when the crew dies way faster? Can you elaborate more on this? explain what are the problems in detail?
Powderhorn Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 We are working on the test version of the new boarding (with units on deck and deeper positioning) but do not know if it will work yet. Once we do it it will become less a gear check - you will be able to barricade on quarterdeck fighting against overwhelming forces easier. Are you guys collaborating with Darth on the UG:G side of the house on this? 1
Hethwill, the Red Duke Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 We both understand that this would be more a problem for new players than for the more experienced ones? What is realistic, may not always be playable, fun. I fail to grasp the why it is a problem.
Lucas Corso Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 (edited) Having successful boarding actions occur frequently is not at all realistic. People seem,to confuse (deliberately?) taking possesion of a surrendered ship by boarding it against no opposition with boarding an actively hostile vessel. These are two separate things! Edited August 31, 2016 by Lucien Delmonte 3
Hethwill, the Red Duke Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 Having successful boarding actions occur frequently is not at all realistic. People seem,to confuse (deliberately?) taking possesion of a surrendered ship by boarding it against no opposition with boarding an actively hostile vessel. These are two separate things! Correct. Major change needed imo: morale through the entire engagement with proportional effect to combat abilities and timings. 1
Skully Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 In a ship battle the outcome of sinking the ship is a loss to both sides.I will weigh in here that a sunken ship is a win for the crafters. Everything that went into Davy Jones' Locker needs to be crafted (and payed for) again. http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/16087-do-not-surrender-here-comes-the-money-sink/
Fastidius Posted August 31, 2016 Author Posted August 31, 2016 I will weigh in here that a sunken ship is a win for the crafters. Everything that went into Davy Jones' Locker needs to be crafted (and payed for) again. http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/16087-do-not-surrender-here-comes-the-money-sink/ every 4 of them maybe...duros fail to help crafters. 1
Cmdr RideZ Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 (edited) I fail to grasp the why it is a problem. Well, the new players do not have that good economy. It is expected that a new player is not as good player as more experienced one. Scenario, only winners would get money and losers get nothing -> The new players would be the ones suffering from this more than the more experienced ones. The same way as the crew cost is, imo, punishing the new or casual players too much. The players who are expected to have less skill will suffer vs Hethwill, who plays +8 hours per day. Can you elaborate more on this? explain what are the problems in detail? To really tell what is broken, you would need to implement a duel system, where you can decide with who you are playing. This will make it possible to test different ships against each other. What I have noticed still, on top of that I suck in raking... 1st/2nd rate is good at maneuvering even if its sails have been hit for example to 60-70%. If a smaller vessel, for example 5th rate, has sails at 60-70%, that is noticeable difference in maneuverability. Truth is that this would need testing. We have been in this situation multiple times, and wondering that how much sails we have to shoot till it starts to affect. It can be that this is just a feeling. I am sure you guys can make a testing environment and see how those affect atm. For example 1st rate VS maneuverable 5th rate. Balls... I like small fleet PvP, mainly because playing alone is boring, maybe am a social nolife. So I sail mostly/always with a friend -> a fleet of 2. We learned this from a battle that we lost, and we were talking that wtf just happened there. My friend was almost in perfect shape, but lost ~75% from his crew. I was in a good shape as well, and lost ~65% from my crew. Tested this in a duel, and were surprised how efficient the grapes really are. You can grape fully armored stern and the damage caused could be like there were no armor at all. The deck, I think this is one hitbox that has 0 armor and a grape hit causes 4 casualties, or something similar. It does not matter if there are 900 or 90 crew on board, the damage caused is equal, even tho 90 should be way more difficult to hit than 900. I also think that armor should have something to do with this. Could be unrealistic, but maybe more playable. Now about the weather gauge, a simplified example. You have it, and you both are sailing 90 degrees from the wind, side by side. You have the benefit to make leaks and most of the time easier time to shoot, but the enemy has easy time to just spam grapes on your deck. Unfortunately you will run out of crew way before the enemy will sink to leaks or lose the hull. Yesterday, we had couple fights. ~Tactic -> shoot the sails and grape. It was a boring way to win, felt like we used an exploit. edit... It seems that damage to crew is higher with a full broadside, than firing one cannon at time. But once again, this may or could be just a feeling. Reliable testing is not that easy. edit2... Angling or good seamanship has no effect on grapes. You just hit the deck and thats it. Edited August 31, 2016 by Cmdr RideZ
Hethwill, the Red Duke Posted August 31, 2016 Posted August 31, 2016 Or not. Given it is one dura and NPC also gives 1 dura from missions or events or OW combat with AI I bet there's little "balance" touched.
Fastidius Posted August 31, 2016 Author Posted August 31, 2016 (edited) But gameplay wise it's just not fun. And I'm not only talking about the mini game here. If you need the devs to tell you what to do to have fun, maybe a sandbox isn't the right game for you ? It's fine when theres PBs and stuff to do but atm the sandbox is pretty empty for me. not really complaining more trying to get a handle on what needs to be fixed according to the devs since they don't hot fix anything and monthly patches seem to be falling short in expectations and timings...... On the advantage of firing low coming from this book https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=_5gtAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=treatise+on+gunnery&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjchu-wht_OAhUDBywKHXYtDY8Q6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=treatise%20on%20gunnery&f=false We believe its a captain choice to sink or to board. With the only problem - its impossible (very hard) to make a good cheat proof sword fighting game in a multiplayer environment. Boarding is inadequate - thats why captains prefer to fire low . We are working on the test version of the new boarding (with units on deck and deeper positioning) but do not know if it will work yet. Once we do it it will become less a gear check - you will be able to barricade on quarterdeck fighting against overwhelming forces easier. OK so if this is the case then please work out WTF we are doing with admiralty & damage for gold. For the most part you have a functioning model that just needs a bit of manipulation. Highest priority on the quick fixes is swap all the boarding/combat mods to an officer perk and work on the values Swap all the temp modules to Permanent and craftable Dump Duros on 6ths and up Make all mods craftable I those few things you fix half the economy and mods/officer problems. Officers give you a way of fixing the rare mods issue. Make ships have officer slots instead of temps and give 7&6rate 1 slot 5&4 2 slots and 3,2&1 3 slots. officers get 10 points max and build a skill tree for the 3 officers. 1 Med/Food 1 Gunnery/Boarding 1 Armour/Agility split perks into these categories that way monkeys and marines are 1 officers end goal not both at once. use the existing officer system to do port tasks and just make them a bit more focused on things like crafting/trading/production/interoutpost prices. can we get a focus on what the patches are intended to do and some sort of a comment on them so we can feedback properly. ATM half the officer perks are OP/Broken, most of the temp mods are OP and things like duros & golden showers don't help. Is there any intent on dealing with this stuff in the next patch or are you just intending on saying there is a new version of boarding that is hard to know if it will work ....anything realtime wont & anything that is longer than 5 minutes wont either. If you are willing to change some of this stuff let us know so we can give you values to try and and let us get some hotfix time to fiddle with them for a few weeks. I am 100% sure we can make boarding better with what we had pre last patch by changing mod values if you would give us the fomulas involved. People are able to give you effective testing if you let them input on it. So many times boarding and mods have been question so many times you recreate the same issue. Why not create a testing UI for some people to have access to to override the stats of the mods so they can test. surely it cant be that hard to have a way to overide the variable in mods for testing purposes...every perk you make has a variable in a formula....just have a UI for testers so they can override those numbers when they have a special rank/flag.. that way you can have people working eith your testers ACTUALLY TESTING. One big patch and then the next week or month patch it with the values they find work rather than having values that dont work and leaving it for months until you break it worse and then say...we are replacing it. you can have a head tester and someone asking for people to go somewhere for boarding testing and actually be running trials like the sea trails but with actual mechanics. Your dead man chests trials work like that. do it with boarding rather than saying its broken and the new system is a guess also. If you build it people can and will test. You have a very workable system and with a few changes you can leverage the code you already have without having to rebuild the boarding game for a while....maybe add a few buttons but not a major rework...you have bigger fish with PBs to figure out all that is missing right now is putting things into focus. TLDR Equipment is a permanent mod for a ship....but you can buy them from crafter Military Ships 6 and Up die.....but crafter will be making them....in various quality due to prices. Things that are paper or people are officer locked perks. Bigger ships more perks all mods and perks on an mod/support systems system so we can get them to change numbers for testing in live trials if you do this you can focus mods on formula testing with people in game. There are reasons games do things in trees and in types....follow them and then move past them...dont just try and jump past you fall into the holes if you dont make it....which is whats been happening of late Edited August 31, 2016 by Fastidius 2
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