Agamemnon bug?

[oldcrankyman]

The Aggie is rated at 4th rate, but won't enter deep port battles.  Is this an oops, or are they going to be useless ships like the Niagra?

[dumpert]

devs stuck to british 1817 (-ish) system of rates, and think that agamemnon and other 64gunners are 4rh rates (even if the brits concidered them as 3rds). in fact back in the 1723 ingermanland was russian 3rd rate too.

[Haratik]

However, 60 gun ships started to become obsolete by the late 18th century, they were no longer considered line of battle ships with the larger 74s up to the first rates.  Hence why they're 4th rates.

[Alex Connor]

Ships grew considerably in size and firepower over the 18th century, the result is that a 3rd rate built in 1715 like Ingermanland (151ft, 24/12/6lb gundecks) is more closely comparable to a 4th rate like HMS Leopard (146ft 5in, 24/12/6lb gundecks) than something like the 74 gun Bellona (168ft, 32/18/9lb gundecks).

 

Agamemnon though is a 64 built towards the end of the 18th century, may be at the low end of 3rd rates but this ship is still 160ft with 24/18/9lb gundecks, considered a SoL and capable of standing in line during a fleet battle.

 

Ingermanland is justifiably classed as a 4th rate but the larger and more modern Agamemnon is a 3rd rate.

[akd]

Her broadside weight is equivalent or less than Constitution and she carries a smaller main battery of the same weight.  She is smaller than Constitution.  In game terms she is a 4th rate.

[Kronans]

the br for those battles are 300 br for the new ship is 400.

[Alex Connor]

You wouldn't put the Constitution into a line of battle.

 

What separates Napoleonic era 3rd rates from 4th rates (apart from pure guncount) is that 3rd rates have 2 heavy gundecks (18lb and up) where 4th rates only have 1 heavy gundeck.

 

Even if Agamemnon is smaller than the Constitution and carries less guns per deck (as does the Bellona), this is still a distinctly more powerful ship.

[akd]

You wouldn't put the Constitution into a line of battle.

Why not? Baltic nations that used 64-gun ships also put heavy frigates in the line. And RN stopped putting 64-gunners in the line, so you could as easily say that at the time they were contemporaries, neither would be put in the line of battle by the RN.

What separates Napoleonic era 3rd rates from 4th rates (apart from pure guncount) is that 3rd rates have 2 heavy gundecks (18lb and up) where 4th rates only have 1 heavy gundeck.

So? NA rating does not have to be rating system from then or from any other period. And what does Agamemnon gain from it anyway? Rating it 3rd rate (3 duras) is just a nerf when Constitution with stronger, larger hull and greater broadside weight of metal is 4th rate (4 duras). As a 3rd rate in game she can only fill her historical role from Napoleonic era: obsolescence.

Even if Agamemnon is smaller than the Constitution and carries less guns per deck (as does the Bellona), this is still a distinctly more powerful ship.

How so? I'll take that spar deck of 32pdr / 42pdr carronades over the 18s in most situations in NA. Rather than "distinctly more powerful" I'd say it is circumstantially more powerful in certain situations, while the Constitution is circumstantially more powerful in others (probably most others).

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

That still don't explain why they can't enter deep port battles (if they can't)

[Sir Texas Sir]

That still don't explain why they can't enter deep port battles (if they can't)

Can it enter regionals though?

[Alex Connor]

akd, on 29 Aug 2016 - 05:45 AM, said:

Why not? Baltic nations that used 64-gun ships also put heavy frigates in the line. And RN stopped putting 64-gunners in the line, so you could as easily say that at the time they were contemporaries, neither would be put in the line of battle by the RN.

 

Against other frigates and 3rd rates. Agamemnon stood in line of battle at Trafalgar, the RN might have stopped building 64s but they remained SoL.

 

akd, on 29 Aug 2016 - 05:45 AM, said:

So? NA rating does not have to be rating system from then or from any other period. And what does Agamemnon gain from it anyway? Rating it 3rd rate (3 duras) is just a nerf when Constitution with stronger, larger hull and greater broadside weight of metal is 4th rate (4 duras). As a 3rd rate in game she can only fill her historical role from Napoleonic era: obsolescence.

 

Constitution was standing in for a more conventional 4th rate, now that we've got the Ingermanland there is no reason to keep the Constitution as a stepping stone to 3rd rates when real "44s" are as large as a 74, much rarer and considerably more expensive.

 

Constitution should be an endgame ship closer to a 1st/2nd rate in price and availability, the frigate to beat all frigates.

 

akd, on 29 Aug 2016 - 05:45 AM, said:id:

How so? I'll take that spar deck of 32pdr / 42pdr carronades over the 18s in most situations in NA. Rather than "distinctly more powerful" I'd say it is circumstantially more powerful in certain situations, while the Constitution is circumstantially more powerful in others (probably most others).

 

Unlike the 18 pdr long gun, carronades were historically quite limited in usefulness against SoL, which only carried carronades on the weather deck as a substitute for small cannon that would have been even less effective in line of battle.

[BungeeLemming]

Just to throw another stone:

 

The Inger should be stripped of her 18pd mid deck at some point

she never had this kind of armament and should at someday be limited to 32/12/6pd.

 

The Agamammnon. Well in game terms she fits the role of a 4th rate. Lesser broadside weight than the Inger snd a 3rd? Why would anyone ever build one (other than a collector's choice?)

 

Not knowing this stuff but I am certain she is intended to fight next to ingermanland and constitution in such a port battle.

What might be the reason for not having such a ship in deep PBs is that she is quite new and devs dont know if they overpowered her in some way.

Which would be a good reason to not put her into such battles right now.

Remember she is totally untuned. fresh out of the shipyard

[Vernon Merrill]

I just want to find out who would win in a Constitution/Agamemnon matchup since we were never able to find out in real life....LOL

[Alex Connor]

Just to throw another stone:

 

The Inger should be stripped of her 18pd mid deck at some point

she never had this kind of armament and should at someday be limited to 32/12/6pd.

 

The Agamammnon. Well in game terms she fits the role of a 4th rate. Lesser broadside weight than the Inger snd a 3rd? Why would anyone ever build one (other than a collector's choice?)

 

Not knowing this stuff but I am certain she is intended to fight next to ingermanland and constitution in such a port battle.

What might be the reason for not having such a ship in deep PBs is that she is quite new and devs dont know if they overpowered her in some way.

Which would be a good reason to not put her into such battles right now.

Remember she is totally untuned. fresh out of the shipyard

 

I think Ingermanland has been upgunned to make the ship more competitive with the Constitution. Should be reduced, perhaps even to 24/12/6lb, the 30 pdrs she carried were a lighter version not equivalent to the 32lb long gun.

 

Constitution in turn might be made a lot more expensive, rarer blueprint, less dura.

 

Agamemnon could be cheaper than the Bellona, more agile and require less crew (let's say new rank introduced with 500 crew between the current 350 -> 650 ranks). Perhaps more dura too, doesn't have to be strictly tied to rating.

[dumpert]

we should use BR system as rate system. that will work just fine.

[Sgt.Barnes]

throwing this out there, but the ags guns are less then productive, why it counts as a 3rd rate, i dont know, i have major difficulty penning a Live Oak Conny past 200m the 24's pen but the 18's dont (noone say "oh your angles are off" trust me, they cant pen.) as far as i can tell, the aggies only shining ability is that it has extra crew...woopty doo.  the side structure is less (i believe) than that of the conny and has a smaller broadside weight.  as far as im concerned its a weak 4th.

[Chimera]

I'm thinking some form of BR system for port battle might be cool as well.

It has been proposed many times before. I'm not a fan of the current mono fleets.

That way we wouldn't need deep water ports and regional capitals with different ship types allowed. Just have different BR limits.

A move like that would give more ships (like the Agamemnon) a role

[Loco Bandito]

Can it enter regionals though?

We had one in a regional today.

[Guest]

Which would be a good reason to not put her into such battles right now.

Remember she is totally untuned. fresh out of the shipyard

 

Doesn't the difficulty in acquiring the blueprint and then still locking them out of port battles just mean that it will be painfully difficult to tune because there's hardly any testing going on?

 

There seems to be pretty healthy testing of how the heavy rattlesnake pairs up against mercs, for example, even if it does seem strong enough to be a gamechanger in those.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Guest

[hiclipucli]

Agamemmnon is exist now ? how many BP drop from last event?

[oldcrankyman]

throwing this out there, but the ags guns are less then productive, why it counts as a 3rd rate, i dont know, i have major difficulty penning a Live Oak Conny past 200m the 24's pen but the 18's dont (noone say "oh your angles are off" trust me, they cant pen.) as far as i can tell, the aggies only shining ability is that it has extra crew...woopty doo.  the side structure is less (i believe) than that of the conny and has a smaller broadside weight.  as far as im concerned its a weak 4th.

It doesn't count as a 3rd rate.  Check the shops, you'll find it listed in the 4th rate slot.   We'd hoped to used them to board towers due to the high HP and crew size.  The crap guns make it just about useless for anything except boarding.

Edited September 14, 2016 by oldcrankyman

[Snoopy]

I hope it is an oversight

 

The ship has little enough alpha damage that it probably won't completely displace the Inger as the FOTM port battle ship if it were admitted.

Good boarder though.