Gallant Galleys/Galleases (and Xebecs)

[Septimius Severus]

I will be getting plans for these ships to put into a thread on Shipyard as well

The galley, one of the most common fighting ships in both the Mediterranean and Baltic seas as a result of its speed, agility, and ease to build. Why not add it to Naval Action? They played an integral part in the navies of some of the greatest naval powers in both the Baltic and Mediterranean: the Swedes, Danes, and later Russians in the former and the Ottomans and Venicians in the latter. This ship, with only bow cannons, would be able to sail or row its way to defeat enemy ships, mostly by use of its marines. These ships would add alot to PVP, especially to port battles, due to its ability to make way quickly where ever the wind may be blowing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galley

Sidenote: Galleys were used in the Caribbean

Another kind of ship, the Xebec, which was better for sailing on the open oceans, was also used, especially by barbary pirates in the Caribbean. It featured 2/3 masts (some square rigged) and oars for propulsion, and side guns for fighting. It would not have been used as exensively for boarding as the galley, but was still fit for that purpose.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xebec

Another ship, similar to the xebec in that it also had broadside capability, was the Galleas. It was similar to the Galley in that it had a similar ship, however it was wider and able to carry more and thus was used often as a trade ship.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galleass

I would also like to add that the galley was used against ships of the line in the Great Northern War between Sweden and Russia (Saxony, Denmark, Poland, the Ottomans, and later the Brits, Hannover, and the Prussians also played a role), and pitted the newly created navy of Peter the Great (the Ingermanland being part of his arsenal) against the experienced Swedish navy. With the help of Venetian shipbuilders, Peter built a grand navy of fast and agile galleys that his skillful commander, Apraxin, used against the ships of the line of the Swedish navy, using the shallow draft (of the galleys) and the poor maneuverability of the Swedish ships to his advantage, successfully capturing multiple by boarding (A great book on this topic is Peter the Great by Robert K. Massie). My point is that these kinds of rowed ships, especially the galleys and xebecs, are by no means outdated in this time period, as the aforementioned galleys served in the same Baltic fleet as the Ingermanland, and had an arguably stronger impact.

These galleys, it should be noted, (the ones in the Baltic) were used mostly in shallow areas and were mostly for boarding. The xebecs were basically light frigates (like a Cerberus) with oars and the galleases were light frigates with oars used often for trading.

Real uses of galleys on the world's oceans during the timeperiod of the game:

]A large naval battle with galleys:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_M%C3%A1laga_(1704))

Midsized battle:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grengam

Example of galleys swarming stranded ship successfully:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hogland_(1705)

Edited August 27, 2016 by Septimius Severus

[edward kydd]

they where never in the caribeen !!

[Tyrdael]

Neither was the St. Pavel, so +1 from me.

[Septimius Severus]

they where never in the caribeen !!

With respect, I don't think this matters. The florida Keys, with their shallow water, would have been a perfect area to use them. Furthermore, some of the ships, including the St. Pavel as Tyrdael pointed out, were not in the caribbean either.

Besides, I don't think this game was meant to be purely historical. If so, why should American players be able to use vics or santis and Brits to use connies?

[Septimius Severus]

Besides, it turns out the spanish used galleys in the Caribbean to attack pirates. Another kind of ship, similar to a galley, called a xebec, would also be interesting.

[OlavDeng2]

I wouldnt be against Galleys personally, but one thing to keep in mind if you want a ship in game ship plans are needed of specific ships, so if you want galleys i suggest you post plans in the shipyard section of the forum of ships between 1670-1820 and who knows, maybe one will be chosen by the devs or voted in on a player ship selection poll. Just dont have too high hopes of it getting in.

[Septimius Severus]

I wouldnt be against Galleys personally, but one thing to keep in mind if you want a ship in game ship plans are needed of specific ships, so if you want galleys i suggest you post plans in the shipyard section of the forum of ships between 1670-1820 and who knows, maybe one will be chosen by the devs or voted in on a player ship selection poll. Just dont have too high hopes of it getting in.

Good to know, I will look into it.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Septimius Severus

[Eishen]

Besides, it turns out the spanish used galleys in the Caribbean to attack pirates. Another kind of ship, similar to a galley, called a xebec, would also be interesting.

 

You will love this... http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14640-devlog-forthcoming-content-patches-plan/page-5?p=271604#entry271604

[Septimius Severus]

You will love this... http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14640-devlog-forthcoming-content-patches-plan/page-5?p=271604#entry271604

I do indeed

[Sonia Delacruz]

Galleys/Galleases? Are you joking? These were not in the late 18th century which the game refers to, if dev add them, I think they will destroy the harmony of this game. I dislike a game passing through time space, this will make this game to be more similar as Uncharted Waters Online.  

Edited August 26, 2016 by Sonia Delacruz

[LeBoiteux]

Galleys/Galleases? Are you joking? These were not in the late 18th century which the game refers to, if dev add them, I think they will destroy the harmony of this game. I dislike a game passing through time space, this will make this game to be more similar as Uncharted Waters Online.  

 

As stated above, NA timeframe : 1680-1820

The Ingermanland was built in 1715 and the Mercury in 1820

[Septimius Severus]

Galleys/Galleases? Are you joking? These were not in the late 18th century which the game refers to, if dev add them, I think they will destroy the harmony of this game. I dislike a game passing through time space, this will make this game to be more similar as Uncharted Waters Online.

This is simly not true. Aside from their extensive use against ships of the line by the Russians throughout the Great Northern Wars against the Swedes, the Barbary pirates of the Mediterranean used galleys and xebecs to pray upon merchant shipping and were so successful that many powerful nations including the Brits, French, and later even the Americans paid yearly fees to pass safely through the strait of Gibralter. It wasn't until the early 19th century (1800's) towards the end of the time period of the game, that the Barbary pirates were attacked by the Americans under Thomas Jefferson that the use of galleys/galleases/xebecs finally began to die out. (France annexed Algiers in 1830, officially ending the era of the Barbary pirates and their control of trade in the Mediterranean.)

Furthermore, even with the death of the galley, the xebecs and later archipelago frigates remained in use well into the 19th century, even in the baltic.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Septimius Severus

[maturin]

It wasn't until the early 19th century (1800's) towards the end of the time period of the game, that the Barbary pirates were snuffed out by the Americans under Thomas Jefferson

I really hope that there aren't American schools or books claiming that the U.S. "snuffed out" piracy.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Algiers_(1816)

[Septimius Severus]

I really hope that there aren't American schools or books claiming that the U.S. "snuffed out" piracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Algiers_(1816)

They certainly played a part in it, But thanks for clarifying that

I read that it was not until 1830 that the French annexed Algiers that it was finally over

Edited August 26, 2016 by Septimius Severus

[Sonia Delacruz]

In my opinion，that the developers chose the vessel is still very strict.  There is not any Galleon appeared in the game，even be not including the Sovereign of the Sea, De Zeven Provincien, La Couronne or La Soleil Royal, which were famous in the 17th century, and so on. I don't understand why only the ancient Gallay and Galleass must be added？

Edited August 26, 2016 by Sonia Delacruz

[Bach]

Might be an interesting experiment but I'm not sure of the real use of galley, galleses in game with 18th century tech would be. Not since the battle of Lapanto have they been used in bulk as main warships. A Bermuda sloop in any kind of reasonable wind would rip apart the standard galley. 18th century bronze cannons with grape shot alone would be devastating. Not to mention how much speed a galley would need to build up to penetrate a rate ship broad side hull.

Still it could be interesting in the shallows or if port battles with land evolve into tactics of anchored gun platform heavy ships in choke points that galleys could get up on.

[maturin]

18th Century galleys didn't ram. They were basically just big gunboats.

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Johan_Tietrich_Schoultz_m%C3%A5lning_Slaget_vid_Svensksund.jpg

[Bach]

18th Century galleys didn't ram. They were basically just big gunboats.

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Johan_Tietrich_Schoultz_målning_Slaget_vid_Svensksund.jpg

Even as oared gun barges they are mostly useless outside of port battles with stationary objectives.

[OlavDeng2]

 

In my opinion，that the developers chose the vessel is still very strict.  There is not any Galleon appeared in the game，even be not including the Sovereign of the Sea, De Zeven Provincien, La Couronne or La Soleil Royal, which were famous in the 17th century, and so on. I don't understand why only the ancient Gallay and Galleass must be added？

 

They choose vessel by time, if a vessel was buildt betweens 1670-1820 officially it has a chance of getting in game, which the ships you mentioned are outside of

[Septimius Severus]

Might be an interesting experiment but I'm not sure of the real use of galley, galleses in game with 18th century tech would be. Not since the battle of Lapanto have they been used in bulk as main warships. A Bermuda sloop in any kind of reasonable wind would rip apart the standard galley. 18th century bronze cannons with grape shot alone would be devastating. Not to mention how much speed a galley would need to build up to penetrate a rate ship broad side hull.

Still it could be interesting in the shallows or if port battles with land evolve into tactics of anchored gun platform heavy ships in choke points that galleys could get up on.

A large naval battle with galleys:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_M%C3%A1laga_(1704))

Midsized battle:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grengam

But I agree, they wouldnt be used in they way they were at lepanto. They way I see it, they are best as a supporting role, boarding stranded ships and that sort of thing.

Even as oared gun barges they are mostly useless outside of port battles with stationary objectives.

Galleys were not always oared barges, they were used commonly as agile boarding platforms, as shown by use by Russians and Barbary pirates

For example:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hogland_(1705)

In my opinion，that the developers chose the vessel is still very strict. There is not any Galleon appeared in the game，even be not including the Sovereign of the Sea, De Zeven Provincien, La Couronne or La Soleil Royal, which were famous in the 17th century, and so on. I don't understand why only the ancient Gallay and Galleass must be added？

Again, galleys, galleasses, and xebecs were used well within the time of the game, and past it Edited August 27, 2016 by Septimius Severus

[Æthlstan]

Galleys were never used in the caribbean, and they were used within our time period only by archaic navies that did not adapt and are also not part of our scope

 

Galleys would be torn apart in a single broadside. If that doesn't sink the galley, it severely hampers it, which allows another broadside to finish it off.

 

Rowed ships against heavy broadsides, even a 6 gun broadside, are extremely outclassed. All you need is to send one ball through the bow or stern, along the oar deck, and now that galley has had a severe disruption of its motive power (rhythym disrupted, sweeps shattered, not  to mention scores of dead to clear from the benches) and it cannot maneuver effectively until its oardeck is reorganized. Which will never happen, because another broadside will hit it long before.

 

 

There is a reason why galleys went extinct in any serious navy after the first few battles with effectively armed galleons and sloops.

[akd]

Galleys were never used in the caribbean, and they were used within our time period only by archaic navies that did not adapt and are also not part of our scope

 

Galleys would be torn apart in a single broadside. If that doesn't sink the galley, it severely hampers it, which allows another broadside to finish it off.

 

Rowed ships against heavy broadsides, even a 6 gun broadside, are extremely outclassed. All you need is to send one ball through the bow or stern, along the oar deck, and now that galley has had a severe disruption of its motive power (rhythym disrupted, sweeps shattered, not  to mention scores of dead to clear from the benches) and it cannot maneuver effectively until its oardeck is reorganized. Which will never happen, because another broadside will hit it long before.

 

 

There is a reason why galleys went extinct in any serious navy after the first few battles with effectively armed galleons and sloops.

 

If you mean Mediterranean / Baltic war galleys, then probably, but all sorts of rowed "galleys" were used up and down the American coast, and surely the Caribbean also.  Regardless, the conditions for galleys and gunboats do not exist in game currently.

[Septimius Severus]

Galleys were never used in the caribbean, and they were used within our time period only by archaic navies that did not adapt and are also not part of our scope

Galleys would be torn apart in a single broadside. If that doesn't sink the galley, it severely hampers it, which allows another broadside to finish it off.

Rowed ships against heavy broadsides, even a 6 gun broadside, are extremely outclassed. All you need is to send one ball through the bow or stern, along the oar deck, and now that galley has had a severe disruption of its motive power (rhythym disrupted, sweeps shattered, not to mention scores of dead to clear from the benches) and it cannot maneuver effectively until its oardeck is reorganized. Which will never happen, because another broadside will hit it long before.

There is a reason why galleys went extinct in any serious navy after the first few battles with effectively armed galleons and sloops.

Galleys would be used commonly in the Baltic and Mediterranean to board enemy ships. Please read things Ive written above this regarding the use of galleys in combat during the period of the game. Furthermore, the Spanish used galleys in the Caribbean to attack pirate hideouts and vice versa bc the pirates used swarms of agile galleys to outmaneuver and capture lone ships in both the Caribbean and the Mediterranean.

I have 3 examples of ship battles with galleys for your enjoyment on the first page, Ive put them into my first post as well to make them easier to find

As for galleys "going extinct" in navies, this only happened in sea going nations like france, england, and spain, because they needed ships to go onto the open ocean. In the Baltic and Mediterranean, "serious navies" like Venice, Ottomans, Swedes, Russians, and Danes continued to use galleys on a massive scale. (In his newly created navy, for example, Peter the Great had a couple hundred galleys built so he could use them to take the Finnish coast from Sweden during the Great Northern War, and they were used effectively, as shown in multiple battles of the war. Peter the Great had hired Venician ship builders to teach his Russian compatriots how to build galleys and ships of war, like the Ingermanland, one of the ships in naval action.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Septimius Severus

[maturin]

As I understand it, boarding was far from the only use for galleys.

 

The Baltic saw large set-piece battles involving scores of galleys in gun-line formations. Concentrated galleys can throw a lot of iron around.

[Haratik]

I really hope that there aren't American schools or books claiming that the U.S. "snuffed out" piracy.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Algiers_(1816)

 

There are a lot of curriculums out there that say a lot of things about how Americans did this, and Americans did that, almost solely on their own.  I can understand national pride, hell I bought into it, and I've had a lot of debates that have devolved into arguments because of it.  It's very easy to believe in something, or make a younger generation believe in something, when the version of history is one-sided.  I've looked into a few different events after my school years and it's a bit astonishing, and even sad, to see just how one-sided things are, or have been, here.

 

Even as oared gun barges they are mostly useless outside of port battles with stationary objectives.

 

I guess we need to pull gunboats from the game then.

--------------------------

Personally my vote goes for yes on them all.  If this game is going to introduce gunboats to play, then surely there can be the variety in small boat play that the players have been pushing for for a while.  That doesn't mean cry foul if galleys and their relatives get pushed forward.  If a viable draught can be produced, within the time period, then by all means, let's have that variety ingame.  If this game is to expand beyond the scope of the Caribbean (which it may or may not), it needs the rest of those historical influences present.

Y'all need to stop your one-track mind and think outside the box.