Collision physics

[_Masterviolin]

Ramming is definitely a problem. It's deadly effects can really mess up your day.

I don't think this would help too much. You see, the penalty is given AFTER they ram- most ships don't even expect to survive if suicide an enemy or troll people. To really eliminate the problem we need something that has more severe consequences, like damage/money/XP taken away in great amounts or ramming at high speeds doing the damage upon yourself and nothing to your enemy. 

 

Idk really. This will certainly help but I think this won't help enough to really do a big number on the tactic.

[Magnum]

2 Yachts can ram into a stopped constitution and push him at a consistent 4 kns.  Is this realistic?  I know some people will cause others to ram them for the purpose of slowing the enemy down, but they will continue at 10+ kns

 

Is that just a Decatur Boyz legend or did that really happen?

 

[Crankey]

Aiming at reality for the after effect of a Rammer, collision occurrs, rammers mast are endangered etc.

 

Players are players, some will ram accidentally, some as a last resort before they sink, and others as griefers.

 

Not much of a problem for Alpha test as our ships are magically repaired for free between matches but I think the Open world end game will deal with the practicalities of why a player shouldn't ram. EG after battle costs etc.

[Harlock]

Is there a way to include the mass of the ship when determining collisions? I.E. damage is proportional to mass and speed?

[Grim DeGrim]

Ramming - the action - is fine.

Ramming - the mechanics - can probably be tweaked (some good observations here).

I still want my little TORPEDO to be effective when I ram an SOL...

[Thomas Blackwell]

It's completely fair. Ramming is a BS tactic that should be discouraged, except for giving SoL's a way to handle pesky little brigs. It's far too popular already and this would fix it.

So it is allowable but only when convenient to you? Ramming should not be punished, but it can be refined.

[maturin]

So it is allowable but only when convenient to you? Ramming should not be punished, but it can be refined.

Err, am I the only person with an SoL?

When a large ship and a small ship collide, only the latter should seriously suffer. This makes sense.

It is also good for gameplay because it prevents cretins from turning cutters into anti-bowsprit tripwires or roleplaying as Greek triremes. If an SoL rams a cutter, it is only because the cutter's captain is being an idiot.

Ramming should not be a path to victory.

[Grim DeGrim]

Except that my snow can do an ungodly amount of damage by ramming my bow into your broadside... And that is how it should be

It is not the ONLY path to victory... But it might be THE path to Victory...

[Magnum]

Ramming can be a path to Victory:

 

I was trying to get on the stern of a Vic in my Bellona and an enemy Connie was in the path - I rammed into the Connie and took it's partial broadside and pushed it 5 or 6 boat lengths towards the Vic (who wasn't shooting because all he could see was his teammate Connie) and I only let it go when I had position on the Vic to deliver my broadside of double.

 

Cool tactic, worked slick

[Mirones]

i had a french surprise ramming my boardside 90° since he was  an morron i simply kept my course and let another french Victory run him over.

revenge is best served cold.

[Crankey]

Don't hijack my thread !!

 

This thread isn't about 'should we allow and condone ramming"  it is about what game mechanic would best follow reality when a ram occurrs. 

 

End game (Release version) costs of a player replacing his ship or his masts, delay using his ship while it is in dock being repaired etc  these will in the end perhaps make a player think twice about the torpedo effect of sacrificing his or her ship in a deliberate ram. That is for another discussion.

[D. Federico de Gravina y N]

Dont worry Crankey, i'm with you, i think that the ramming should have an extra damage for who ram

[Charles Caldwell]

I played a few games last night, at least 3 of those games smaller vessels started by making a beeline for my bowsprit mast and dismasting me.....

 

Over the last few weeks it appears common practice for smaller ships to do this, suffer very little in return and the SOL or Rated ship suffering a drop of sail integrity by upto 30%.

 

Surely a simple fix is for the smaller vessels to be totally dismasted as it passes through the generally larger, stronger bowsprit mast of the SoL/Rated ship....

[admin]

Is that just a Decatur Boyz legend or did that really happen?

 

 

theoretically would not this be possible? 2 yachts pulling (towing) the constitution? at 4 knots?

[Reki]

Ramming can be a path to Victory:

 

I was trying to get on the stern of a Vic in my Bellona and an enemy Connie was in the path - I rammed into the Connie and took it's partial broadside and pushed it 5 or 6 boat lengths towards the Vic (who wasn't shooting because all he could see was his teammate Connie) and I only let it go when I had position on the Vic to deliver my broadside of double.

 

Cool tactic, worked slick

oh , some players, like me, for example, doesn't find hiding after ally enough reason to not shoot xD its just should be done in accurate way, bu not impossible.

 

 

theoretically would not this be possible? 2 yachts pulling (towing) the constitution? at 4 knots?

on this screen game could have trouble in anonther aspect. What if each of those little ships add more red leaks with ramming to one big ship. It could be exploit to sink large ships just with ramming rage.

[Reki]

Err, am I the only person with an SoL?

When a large ship and a small ship collide, only the latter should seriously suffer. This makes sense.

 

This makes sense, but taking all of their masts? Seriously? I don't care how realistic it is, but damage should be done to hull. Maybe some upper sections of masts too, but not all of them.

 

p.s. sorry for doublepost. Just forgot, that i have one.

[Alex Connor]

theoretically would not this be possible? 2 yachts pulling (towing) the constitution? at 4 knots?

I don't think so, not with so much smaller sail area. Perhaps 1 or 2 kts.

 

And forward movement only, Constitution's own sails would not provide enough thrust to reach 4 kts going sideways   

[Reki]

I don't think so, not with so much smaller sail area. Perhaps 1 or 2 kts.

 

And forward movement only, Constitution's own sails would not provide enough thrust to reach 4 kts going sideways   

And why not 4? Con speed will be summ of two. One - her own speed, which is high, and second - pushing speed of 2 yachts. Together they will form vector and speed. I think 4 knots is possible ( on screen it have no sails, but maybe some inertia there). Except that, con isn't on anchor, which means enough time with no wind resistance could provide pretty good speed with sidestrafe moving, i think. It can be calculated just if we will have water resistance number of Const underwater area, which will affect on speed of three-ships system directly. Own cons sails with sidemoving have another vector, it will be some heel there. 2 yachts have almost pure vector.

[Alex Connor]

This makes sense, but taking all of their masts? Seriously? I don't care how realistic it is, but damage should be done to hull. Maybe some upper sections of masts too, but not all of them.

Damage to the masts is the same principle as a lever. When the ship stops suddenly all momentum of the mast and pressure from sails is applied to the base of the mast, perhaps the mast snaps at the deck or some weak point like the doubling between lower mast and topmast

 

It is possible to for a ship to break its masts running onto a sandbank, maybe you don't even stove in the hull planking but the masts are lost. I've read accounts of this, will try to find them.

 

So when you ram a ship there should be rigging damage, how much depends on how fast you stop. For example, brig sails at full speed into the side of a 1st rate, very heavy rigging damage, you would lose bowsprit, definitely topmasts and perhaps also lower masts, possible to be completely dismasted. If a 1st rate sails full speed into a brig, 1st rate barely slows down because the brig is just smashed and pushed underwater, there is no rigging damage (not even bowsprit) and only risk of damage to hull.

 

If the ships are not going so fast or more equal in size there is less damage. To just brush against another ship you probably wouldn't lose the bowsprit unless you ship is much smaller and the bowsprit hits their hull, otherwise the only risk is that you tangle rigging and cannot move.

[Chromey]

agree that ships ramming should take mast damage causing masts to be sometimes broken.

[Reki]

its not about reality. Terrible damage to gameplay in case of friendly ramming. For now its everywhere.

[Alex Connor]

And why not 4? Con speed will be summ of two. One - her own speed, which is high, and second - pushing speed of 2 yachts. Together they will form vector and speed. I think 4 knots is possible ( on screen it have no sails, but maybe some inertia there). Except that, con isn't on anchor, which means enough time with no wind resistance could provide pretty good speed with sidestrafe moving, i think. It can be calculated just if we will have water resistance number of Const underwater area, which will affect on speed of three-ships system directly.

Constitution is 2200 tons, the yacht is about 100 tons only. If it sails into the side of Con with speed it will stop almost instantly (and very badly damage itself).

 

The sails of the yacht are only enough to push itself at maybe 10 kts (exaggerated ingame, the yacht is too small to be so fast, it would only be considered fast in light winds when big ships lose most of their speed). If the sails can only move 100 tons at 10kts then moving the 2200 ton Con it will reach only about 0.5kts. 2 yachts = 1kt. Maybe. If they do not get in each others way.

 

Even a ship of similar size towing Constitution would be lucky to reach 4 or 5 kts.

 

To reach any speed pushing Constitution sideways with small ships would be nearly impossible, there is so much area of hull to cause drag.

[Brigand]

To put some numbers to this discussion:

74-Gun ship (1794)
	Bow sprit        : 35.0 inches (diameter)
	Jib boom         : 14.5 inches (diameter)
	
Merchant Brig of 150 tons (1794)
	Main mast        : 16.5 inches (diameter)
	Main top         : 10.0 inches (diameter)
	Main top gallant :  5.5 inches (diameter)

(source)

 

Cheers,

Brigand

[Brigand]

The sails of the yacht are only enough to push itself at maybe 10 kts (exaggerated ingame, the yacht is too small to be so fast, it would only be considered fast in light winds when big ships lose most of their speed). If the sails can only move 100 tons at 10kts then moving the 2200 ton Con it will reach only about 0.5kts. 2 yachts = 1kt. Maybe. If they do not get in each others way.

The maximum speed of a sailing ship is mostly determined by its length at the water line. No matter how much sail you put onto it, it will not go faster than the the maximum hull-speed, which is determined (almost completely) by its length.

On the flip side, you can put not enough canvas on your ship and, as a result, not reach your theoretic maximum.

Also, the 'tonnage' of ships in the age of sail is tons burthen, not to be confused with displacement, a notion that was introduced much later.

So, while it is certainly true that a brig or yacht is lacking the mass and energy to smash a large ship aside, they should definately be able to push it off course, by simply continuing to push against it, but it won't be fast.

Cheers,

Brigand

[Reki]

Constitution is 2200 tons, the yacht is about 100 tons only. If it sails into the side of Con with speed it will stop almost instantly (and very badly damage itself).

One single man can drag airplain on road just with rope. Its not matter of weight, вut force and resistance.