Pirate on Pirate to avoid combat, sits in post battle screen.

[Eldberg]

Yet another post about Pirate on Pirate tagging. How many will it take for this to be fixed? For the love of god, turn off Pirate vs Pirate combat until you can fix this.

Player Names: Lukish and Usub

[Eldberg]

More to come, moderators please hold on locking the thread.

[Eldberg]

Following this incident, we found them again and they did the same. This time we managed to tag the St Pavel and a battle ensued. During this battle, Lukish (in the Ingermaland) did everything he could to disrupt our capture of the St Pavel, including shooting, ramming, blocking, and ultimately boarding the St Pavel to save the prize for his friend.

If this does not result in a ban of both players at the very least, compensation and apology at the best, then I seriously question the justice system of this game.

P.S The video is below, it may take a while to fully upload but it will displace here when it is complete.

 

[TommyShelby]

Edit: After the battle i received the following message; 

PS. I'm Danish, not American.. 

 

Edit 2: 

He is now griefing/trolling. (10 minutes after the original battle ended) (How he was able to get us into a battle i have no idea.) 

[SteelSandwich]

Tommy, stephen attacked the cutter in the second battle, not the other way around.

In regards to the rest, flagged again for attention.

[Eldberg]

I can confirm that I did not attack the cutter in the second battle. I had him highlighted but did not click attack, or have any sort of countdown. I did however in the 3rd battle, where we proceeded to run his pirate tooshkie over.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Stephen_Decatur

[dumpert]

I can confirm that I did not attack the cutter in the second battle. I had him highlighted but did not click attack, or have any sort of countdown. I did however in the 3rd battle, where we proceeded to run his pirate tooshkie over.

 

just fyi

 

the one who attacks is always on top of the left side. shelby's screenshot proves it was you.

[Vernon Merrill]

I can also confirm that USUB griefed the entire post battle trip from Inagua to Tortue attempting to tag repeatedly and using extremely vulgar terms.  It's stuff like this that gives the "nerf-the-pirate"crowd ammunition.  If stuff like this isnt bannable, I'm not sure what is...

 

Just my $.02

[admin]

There is a difference between a false flag and a real flag

 

False flags

Green on green is supposed to defend people from false flag attacks - where you really expect him to be a friendly but he sinks you. 

 

Real flags

But in cases mentioned here there was no false flag. They were clearly enemies and they were just present on your side because battle entry mechanics allowed that - and they wanted to save the ship and you wanted to sink them. Green on green former rules did not handle such scenario.. and it was a problem.

 

Rules has been modified

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/2346-forum-and-sea-trials-rules/

 

Green on Green protection is off from now on in cases where its clear that the Captain is operating as an enemy flag even if he is on your side (because of mechanics)

• If a friendly ship belongs to a clan on the opposing side in the battle on the open world
• and if this friendly ship interferes with combat (and does not actually fuilfill his duty to destroy the enemy)

then

• this ship can be sank with no consequences. 

This is a temp solution and will be fixed once alliances patch hits. (you will get an xp hit because we cannot differentiate real vs false flag) but changes in ROE will solve the problem in the future.

 

This will soften the problem until we fix battle entry and pirate vs pirate roles.

[admin]

I can confirm that I did not attack the cutter in the second battle. I had him highlighted but did not click attack, or have any sort of countdown. I did however in the 3rd battle, where we proceeded to run his pirate tooshkie over.

 

The screen shows the opposite. Most likely you clicked on that ship accidentally. If he could pull you to battle why did he do it only once? 

[Ellis]

Well seeing as Admin requested that I or Tommy formulate an opinion or request for punishment in this thread I'll be writing this. Seeing as how the players were fully aware of what they were doing on both occasions, and there demeanor in chat afterwards, it is quite a simple ruling complete ban for both players involved. Allowing these players in will only set th game back another step: undermine the game rules and use them to gain an unfair advantage, all the while behavingwhat I can only label as 'toxic' ( he continued to message us afterwards and we reported in game) and not have any consequences whatsoever? That is a precedent I do not wish to see established.

[admin]

Well seeing as Admin requested that I or Tommy formulate an opinion or request for punishment in this thread I'll be writing this. Seeing as how the players were fully aware of what they were doing on both occasions, and there demeanor in chat afterwards, it is quite a simple ruling complete ban for both players involved. Allowing these players in will only set th game back another step: undermine the game rules and use them to gain an unfair advantage, all the while behavingwhat I can only label as 'toxic' ( he continued to message us afterwards and we reported in game) and not have any consequences whatsoever? That is a precedent I do not wish to see established.

I think you have misread my request. I asked to bring those tribunal matters to tribunal topics. Because it is a rule that only involved parties are allowed to comment. We have not asked to provide the punishment proposals because players usually overreact and will usually ban everyone on the opposite side

 

For example

you proposed the clear and simple ruling = ban.

Does it mean we are also administering the simple and clear ruling: ban for tommyshelby for his comment? Otherwise it is also going to be a precedent you don't want to be established right?  Or you meant only they had to follow the rules and not tommy? He was also very aware of the rules and was aware what he was doing and what he was saying (quoting you).  I am confused

[Ellis]

If you think that tommy deserves a chat ban then That is your choice and you are welcome to do that. However it would be a poor one ,giving what he said yes was wrong, it was said in the context of: sailing for multiple hours to find nothing and then to finally find these two and have this be he result? I think you could understand the anger and annoyance felt toward them. In the end it is your choice you asked for my opinion I gave it.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Ellis

[admin]

If you think that tommy deserves a chat ban then That is your choice and you are welcome to do that. However it would be a poor one ,giving what he said yes was wrong, it was said in the context of: sailing for multiple hours to find nothing and then to finally find these two and have this be he result? I think you could understand the anger and annoyance felt toward them. In the end it is your choice you asked for my opinion I gave it.

 

Your opinion translation (that's how i read it): ban then but not me, they are bad guys and cant say "dumb and stupid" but our guy is a good guy so he can say whatever he wants if he feels anger and annoyance.

 

Wait.. applying double standards should not be a choice of yours. Because it will be a poor choice.  We asked for your opinion but your opinion was biased and we respectfully will not take it into account.

 

But anyway.. chat bans are handled by the report function and by ignore function. This topic is not about the chat behaviour.. we are not allowing chat ban discussions in tribunal

[Ellis]

I feel there's a difference between punching someone if your angry and murdering them though no? The Same difference between knowingly breaking game rules and saying one ignorant comment? But if it's getting ignored then ok I'll leave this thread to others.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Ellis

[admin]

I feel there's a difference between punching someone if your angry and murdering them though no? The Same difference between knowingly breaking game rules and saying one ignorant comment? But if it's getting ignored then ok I'll leave this thread to others.

 

Ellis i dont understand if you are trolling or not.

what is getting ignored?

 

Chat behavior is handled by report function/ignore function

more than 20 players are banned weekly for things they say - some permanently. Punishment will always reach the perpetrator. Because on chat the rules have been forged and molded.

We are not discussing chat behavior here

 

regarding the attack and green on green tribunal's  Rule have been adapted..   Did you proceed to the link I posted. Did you read it?

[Ellis]

Yes I did read it, also I am referring to "we will not take it into account" sorry I substituted wording.

[Ellis]

We asked for your opinion but your opinion was biased and we respectfully will not take it into account

Sorry quoting is hard on phones

[admin]

Yes I did read it, also I am referring to "we will not take it into account" sorry I substituted wording.

 

this topic is about pirate attacking pirate problem - but for some reason it was mixed it with chat issues and even some other suspicions

 

your chat comments and proposals based on chat will not be taken into account. Because chat behaviour is not a tribunal matter.

System to handle chat is in place for a long time and it works. For the system it does not matter if you say something out of anger or frustration or you were really attacking someone, or if you were responding to someone. System works so well that the majority of negative reviews are about chat bans lately and we are considering changing it a bit (will post on that later) 

 

Regarding the green on green and pirate on pirate.

The complaints player made have been taken into account and green on green rules have been adapted, green on green wont protect them anymore - just sink them both if an amended rule requirements are fulfilled.

[Eldberg]

To bring this post back on topic.

In the past Captains have been punished (sometimes severely) if they have done something that is not against the rules, purely because the rule has not existed. You are a small development team working on a game that is a new experience for you. We cannot expect you to think of every rule possible, for that you would need to know human nature on a level that is simply not possible. What I ask is that you treat everyone the same. Everyone is accountable under the same stern hand of the law, everyone should be delivered the same justice as anyone else, regardless of who they are.

You have asked for a forced apology for crimes less than this, you have branded people with a final warning, circumnavigating the warning process posted in your rules thread. So when two players who know that they are clearly doing something wrong, despite many warnings, helpful posting of links from yourself etc continue to act inappropriately, they should be handled as severely as anyone else.


We have had our differences Mr Admin, but any frustrations from both of our sides have come from our shared passion of the game. We are half a world apart, two very different people, brought together over our love for something as simple as a game. Let us continue this passion of ours, while removing those who seek to deface it. These two players deserve punishment for what was done here, changing the rules is just not enough.

[admin]

You have asked for a forced apology for crimes less than this, you have branded people with a final warning, circumnavigating the warning process posted in your rules thread. So when two players who know that they are clearly doing something wrong, despite many warnings, helpful posting of links from yourself etc continue to act inappropriately, they should be handled as severely as anyone else.

 

 

Please read clause 8 of these rules

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/2346-forum-and-sea-trials-rules

 

 

Regarding the punishment.

rule have been changed

real enemy flag issue is not going to be a problem any more

players wont be able to hide under the green on green rule - just sink them if they exhibiting real flag behavior (are in the same clan with the enemy and help them).

 

false flag attacks are still not allowed 

[Eldberg]

Please read clause 8 of these rules

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/2346-forum-and-sea-trials-rules

 

 

Regarding the punishment.

rule have been changed

real enemy flag issue is not going to be a problem any more

players wont be able to hide under the green on green rule - just sink them if they exhibiting real flag behavior (are in the same clan with the enemy and help them).

 

false flag attacks are still not allowed 

I fully understand that the rules have been changed, and I thank you for doing so. However that does not deal with the actions of these particular captains, it only deals with future captains who decide to attempt this again. We have here two captains clearly abusing mechanics, that is without question. They did so knowingly of multiple tribunals highlighting the issue where you have dealt with offenders swiftly.

Do you not understand, players like these are hurting your game. The frustration shared by the players involved last night is abundantly clear... Circumstances like this lead players to leave a game out of frustration of other players abusing mechanics unpunished. This is your baby, right? You are the sole investor of this game. You have poured blood, sweat and most likely tears in to this game. So why let players like this continue to exist in your game, why let them go unpunished?

You don't want to ban them, fine. Remove a durability from their ship, speak to them directly and warn them, just do SOMETHING that lets them know what they did was wrong. That is all we are asking for here, it is perfectly reasonable.

[admin]

 

I fully understand that the rules have been changed, and I thank you for doing so. However that does not deal with the actions of these particular captains, it only deals with future captains who decide to attempt this again. We have here two captains clearly abusing mechanics, that is without question. They did so knowingly of multiple tribunals highlighting the issue where you have dealt with offenders swiftly.

 

Which swift tribunals on pirate using pirates as shields were resolved and punishments were issued?

I remember none, this rule is still uncleared.

 

You have to change the perspective on game development Captain.

Once you change it it will be easier for you to have fun and enjoy what you have.

 

Part 1

There are cleared rules and there are uncleared rules.

• Cleared rules is when the community has voted/decided that something is bad. After it was decided that its bad we add helping things into design or game tools.
• Uncleared rules is when there is no decision yet on something is bad. We are not going to ban anyone for uncleared rules. Just because you think something is exploit or abuse does not make it an exploit. Pirates can attack pirates thats not an exploit. Pirates using pirates as shield an exploit - maybe- maybe not. Maybe it just needs fixing

Perhaps some of you veterans forgot about

• Insta teleports without casting time that allowed to escape battles
• Exit from game without cooldowns allowing exiting the world immediately taking the ship off the map
• Multiple bugs with the OW allowing creative things to happen during chases
• Stopping reinforcements and farming them because stop command made them ignore the enemy
• Explorer module that existed on some ships until the first wipe last year 
• Ships with multiple reload mods (for example 5 reload mods or 5 accuracy mods) that existed until the second wipe last year

All this was eventually fixed. But some of those things were used by good captains including US/British captains who used them because they existed. Mechanics that did not serve any other purpose were removed. 

 

Maybe we should talk about some other potential unresolved issues (uncleared rules) ?

• Why you are not pressing to ban all US port battle participants who exploited lack of spanish timers (from the opinion of the spanish of course)?
• Why you are not pressing bans for British lord protectors who exploit timers against the French (from the opinion of the French of course)
• Why you are not pressing bans for compass wood trade (clearly broken right?) from the viewpoint of all who does not trade compass wood
• Why you are not pressing bans for all who spend more than 1 second in battle result screen? 
• And where do we stop?

Some of the mechanics still remain because fixing them wastes time, no point to fix the dying feature if it is going to be replaced by something else (and better) anyway. You are all proposing to fix the dying feature and waste everyone's time taking it away from diplomacy or fishing.

 

This all brings us to a second point

 

Part 2

The game is in development.

Its in early access. Some things are broken and will be broken for a while. You had the chance to vote on the development priorities. Changing green on green mechanics was not even proposed by players. We are now focused on merging servers, finishing some of the unfinished things from previous patch and multiple other cleaning things in preparation for alliances in the future.

 

Just one more thing

 

Captains.

There is an alternative

• Stop updating the main servers
• Open a test server
• Invite only those few who can handle the fact that some of the mechanics are unfinished.

But not sure if it is needed

Because all current servers are test servers and you all know the game is not finished and some things are broken and you actually can influence the development. If you understand that and change the perspective to - this is a test early access server and many things are broken- you will suddenly start having more fun.

 

 

 

You do realize admin, Players are leaving your game in the dozens every day over this sort of abuse verbally and abuse of game mechanics...and you don't seem to care. I average 1-2 fleet members leaving your game ever day or 2 stating " I can't take this anymore, when they fix it I might come back".

 

Abuse verbally? Report them they will be banned

Cant take verbal abuse - report, then add to ignore, if the abuse was severe he will be banned.

A lot of bans are issued weekly every friday and even more warnings are given

The post is coming about it in news. The funny thing is happening with bans - more on that later.

[EricKilla]

Captains.

There is an alternative

• Stop updating the main servers
• Open a test server
• Invite only those few who can handle the fact that some of the mechanics are unfinished.

 

I'm going to proactively apologize here for posting on a tribunal I cannot contribute direct evidence for, but I just wanted to say that I think this is a fantastic idea. You don't even need to stop fully updating the main server; just roll out new patches a week or two early (similar to the supertester program WarGaming uses for World of Warships) on a test server, allow them to iron out some of the nastiest kinks, and then release that patch to the general public for fine tuning. This can be later adapted when the game exits early access to facilitate efficient QA testing.  I would heartily volunteer to become a super-tester.

 

As to the topic at hand: I myself have experienced the issue of pirates exploiting this mechanic. Last night, Myself and a few clan mates were pursuing a mercury holding a conquest flag off the coast of Florida. A pirate yacht in the same clan as the flag holder tagged him far out enough to prevent us from getting in close in OW. We were still able to join the battle on the side of the yacht, allowing us to attack the flag holder, but it spawned us so far out that I did not have enough range on my chasers to hit the target (I was in a constitution with the largest long cannon caliber you can have on the fore chasers, 18pds maybe?). The yacht then promptly sailed away from the mercury without either exchanging a shot. I don't have any screenshots or videos, as I really didn't think it would be needed at the time. If I see this happen again in the near future, I will secure evidence for use.

[Eldberg]

Requesting this post to be locked.

This post is going no where, the issue has been dealt with in a way that the developers seem fit. Any further discussion will clearly achieve nothing. But please, leave the post here for everyone to read.