A rework to labor hours idea.

[TheNubCake]

I wrote a post on the steam forums about crafting and labor hours, but figured it would be better to post it here as a suggestion.

Post #7

http://steamcommunity.com/app/311310/discussions/1/368542585861403392/

 

 

Yeah, have to dip in here aswell.
the labor hour system needs some tweaking.

42 LH/h is fine for lower levels, but not the higher.
And especially after the rank XP treshold change, I'm now close to sail 2nd rates, but cant even build 4th rates yet.

I have 4x level 3 production buildings, with the resources I use the most... but they have had full storage since they first reached it, since the LH is best used for ship crafting.

And as mentioned by many already...
The XP earned for crafting materials, should match the LH needed.

Imo, you could lower the amount of LH you earn at level 1 crafting, then slowly increase the amount with the levels.
For example:

Level 1 = 26 LH/h
+1 at every level.
Level 25 = 50 LH/h
+1 at every level again.
Level 50 = 75 LH/h

So a level 17 crafter would earn 42 LH/h, wich we have now.
A level 32 crafter would earn 57 LH/h, etc etc...

The reduced time to build a Excep. 3rd rate (assuming a crafter have 0 labor hours and need to wait) would be:

Level 50 crafter - From 5,3 days down to 2,9 days.
Level 44 crafter - From 5,3 days down to 3,2 days.

It still takes some time for a single crafter, but atleast you wont need to put everything else on hold for almost an entire week, just to build a single ship.

I know, I know.."big clans can just pump out ships left and right with this!!"...
Well honestly, they already can if they have the members.
But this atleast gives the smaller clans and even solo players, a bit more to work with.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, this does slightly increase the time it takes to craft a ship at lower levels, but it really dosent matter much.
Afterall, a new crafter starts with a full bank of Labor hours, and you rise in levels very fast early on, so the minor increase in crafting time is barely noticeble.

 

To me, this seems more resonable and its even rewarding higher level crafters wich might make it more attractive to build lower ranked ships cheaper for new players, while still being able to craft the higher ranked ships.

It also leaves more room to actually use the production buildings for own purpose.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Edited April 16, 2016 by TheNubCake

[Galileus]

The game's craft is balanced around the higher end, not the lower one. If you were to give more LH to high level crafters it would not make shipbuilding at higher level faster, it would make low levels slower (due to re balancing accordingly). As such, I would say no - crafting leveling is slow enough as it is, making it two times longer is really not needed.

 

And if you're asking for the whole system to be re-done just so that you can craft more ships, just ask for that straight up. Still "no" though. The fact you need to spend so much time making SoLs makes them valuable.

[Diggled]

Ship builders should be absolutely dependent on others to do their work, to prefab parts or gather resources.  Building ships should not be an independent act by any means whatsoever.  They need to ditch the whole double xp for crafting ships and maybe give shipyards a discount on labor, but take up more building plots.

 

We do need is more variety of buildings besides just resource harvesters

Edited April 16, 2016 by Diggled

[cmdrbobcito]

As the game's complexity continues to develop, the interconnectivity of it's growing number of "parts" are just becoming more obvious.  We are still doing the jobs of testers, which means doers and "learners".  Every tweak will have short term and long term consequences...these forum conversations are our effort at collective vision and quality improvement.  

[TheNubCake]

The game's craft is balanced around the higher end, not the lower one. If you were to give more LH to high level crafters it would not make shipbuilding at higher level faster, it would make low levels slower (due to re balancing accordingly). As such, I would say no - crafting leveling is slow enough as it is, making it two times longer is really not needed.

 

And if you're asking for the whole system to be re-done just so that you can craft more ships, just ask for that straight up. Still "no" though. The fact you need to spend so much time making SoLs makes them valuable.

 

Considering how fast it is to go up in levels early on, I cant really see how this is making it 2 times longer...

With this method, already at level 17, you are getting the exact same LH per hour, as we do now.

 

Sure, it does increase the time it takes to make lower level ships (if a crafter sits with 0 labor hours), but we are talking about few hours here, not days.

Excep. Brig, with current LH/h, takes about 1,5 days of LH to build.

With the above method, that rises to just 1,7 days of LH.

 

Ofcourse, thats when its about making ships to be used, and not just for leveling.

 

if we look at leveling and just goes with best XP per LH anyway, wich I believe is the traders cutter with 1,73 xp per LH.

 

But I'll use the Traders Lynx here, since its possible to craft from level 1.

And keep in mind, a new crafter/player starts with a bank full of labor hours.

 

Currently, it require 254 LH to build, and with 42 LH/h, that is about 5,8 hours worth of LH.

With suggested method, that would require 9,4 hours worth of LH.

 

Although this seem like a lot, that single ship yields 418 xp, wich pushes you to level 3 if I remember correct...

From there, you can start making traders cutter, and still use the bank of LH you began with.

 

To sum it up, with the initial starting labor hours, you can make 1 traders lynx and 2x traders cutter.

Thats a total of about 1648 crafting XP, wich brings you just a drop away from level 7... you can use the remaining 50ish LH, to prepare for the next craft, and push you over level 7.

Thats level 7 with just the starting labor hours.

Now with the suggested system, you would gain 32 LH/h at level 7. So 24 hours later, you have 768 LH, wich is enough to make another 2 traders cutter, wich brings you up to level 9.

Another 24 hours later, and you are now level 11.

 

It really dont increase the time it takes to reach level 17 by a whole lot, and from there it just gets better from what we currently have.

 

Also, its not really about being able to make more ships, because if a clan wants to deploy a SoL every 2 days, they most likely can do that, with enough members and crafting levels.

But clan crafters, from what I understand, is already more than busy with pumping out ship after ship and have plenty of people helping them do so.

 

So this is aimed more at thoose who do not have such luxery, nor wish to be part of a huge clan with commitments to PvP and such.

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Crafting system has to move forward and rely even more on multiplayer rather than "single".

 

More resources needed, more diversity of parts and more important than all, cannon foundries - yes, cannons being built by players -and- imported from europe.

 

Increase Labour hours, okay sure, but at the same time expand the system as to step forward to a multiplayer/NPC hybrid economy.

[TheNubCake]

Crafting system has to move forward and rely even more on multiplayer rather than "single".

 

More resources needed, more diversity of parts and more important than all, cannon foundries - yes, cannons being built by players -and- imported from europe.

 

Increase Labour hours, okay sure, but at the same time expand the system as to step forward to a multiplayer/NPC hybrid economy.

 

That I completely agree with!

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

When I said "more resources needed" I meant more "variety of resources needed for manufactured parts" for assembling a ship.

 

Artificially will make labour more precious even while making specialization a real thing instead of the "slavery for LH" that is happening in some places.

 

At the end it will make war fleets really exceptional and a national achievement.

[Galileus]

Considering how fast it is to go up in levels early on, I cant really see how this is making it 2 times longer...

 

Because you're only considering your idea in an empty space of Want.

 

If you propose 2x the amount of labor hours for lvl 50 crafters, then all the ships will increase in cost 2 times (since the balancing is top-down) to account for that. That means low level crafters can craft 2 times less, and high level ones can craft exactly as much as they can now. It's not great, is it?

 

It's not like you're going to just increase amount of LH available and keep everything as it is, are you?

[TheNubCake]

Because you're only considering your idea in an empty space of Want.

 

If you propose 2x the amount of labor hours for lvl 50 crafters, then all the ships will increase in cost 2 times (since the balancing is top-down) to account for that. That means low level crafters can craft 2 times less, and high level ones can craft exactly as much as they can now. It's not great, is it?

 

It's not like you're going to just increase amount of LH available and keep everything as it is, are you?

 

Well first of, are you offended in any way? Cause it sounds like you are attacking me, just because of a suggestion...

 

And I have no idea what you are talking about... empty space of want? 2x the amount of labor hours?

Sorry, I'm gonna need a better explanation for that.

 

 

I'm suggestion increasing the amout of labor hours we gain per hour, proportionel to the levels.

As leveling from 1 > 17, generally dont take a long time, reducing the amount of labor hours per hour for thoose levels wont have any severe impact.

And from level 17 and up, the amount becomes the same as we currently have, and only increases further, until it caps out at 75 labor hours per hour at level 50.

 

Since the XP per level increases aswell, that +1 labor hour per hour, per level, is still not something that makes people level 50 instantly.

Lets look at low, mid and high level crafting, for leveling purposes...

 

From 15 to 16, you need 1120 xp. Thats 2 traders cutter, and 708 labor hours required to build.

With 42 labor hours per hour, that takes just 16,8 hours.

With the suggested system, you would gain 40 labor hours per hour, at level 15. So that only increases it to 17,7 hours.

 

From level 35 to 36, you need 3519 xp. Thats 5,7 traders cutter, but lets say 6.

It require 2124 labor hours to build 6 traders cutter. With 42 labor hours per hour, that is 2,1 days worth of labor hours, required to go from 35 to 36.

With my suggestion, at level 35, you would gain 60 labor hours per hour. So it would take about 1,5 days, to go from 35 to 36.

 

From level 49 to 50... requires 6668 xp. Thats 10,8 traders cutter, so lets say 11.

That is 3984 labor hours, and with 42 per hour, its 3,8 days to reach level 50.

With suggested system, you gain 74 labor hours per hour at level 49, so that reduces to 2,2 days.

 

The extra time it takes to reach level 17, is as said, hardly noticeble, and the higher levels only really see a bigger reduction near the end, but it never reaches a 50% reduction.

 

 

But all of this, is just numbers I came up with. It dont HAVE to be 75 at level 50, or 50 at level 25... But there is still need for more labor hours per hour, considering how much that actually require labor hours already, and more is surely to come.

And as I said, big enough clans already have the hours to pump out SoL's several times per week. But it is not ONLY about thoose ships... there is more to the game than only SoL's.

 

Right now, the limited hours severely limits what people can do.

If you want to level crafting, then you gotta avoid wasting hours on anything else.

Same deal if you want to make upgrades.

Or if you want to get resources from your production buildings, well there goes the hours. Currently, this really only benefit traders, yet they simply sell the resources to NPC's instead of crafting sub components and sell thoose to crafters.

 

Also, my suggestion is not something that have to be a permanent thing, but could be done for testing purposes only. We are in a early access alpha afterall, and only way to actually see the effects of something, is to implement it for a period of time.

 

And as I also mentioned, it dont have to be the numbers I came up with. I just picked thoose, cause I like to divide/add with 5. It could start with 35 at level 1, and cap at 65 instead, if thats what the testing showed to be best.

Edited April 17, 2016 by TheNubCake

[Galileus]

Sigh.

 

You're considering your idea as if it's bringing in more LH into the system. It's not.

 

If after implementing your idea ship builders get 2x the LH, the ships would need to be 2x as costly to balance it out. The change is balanced top-down - as in, it's balanced for top crafters and the low crafters follow.

 

 

From level 49 to 50... requires 6668 xp. Thats 10,8 traders cutter, so lets say 11.

That is 3984 labor hours, and with 42 per hour, its 3,8 days to reach level 50.

With suggested system, you gain 74 labor hours per hour at level 49, so that reduces to 2,2 days.

 

This is the problem right here. It should go like that:

 

 

That is 3984 labor hours, and with 42 per hour, its 3,8 days to reach level 50.

With suggested system, you gain 74 labor hours (176%) per hour at level 49, so you balance trader cutter cost to 176%

That is 7012 labor hours, and with 74 per hour, its 3,8 days to reach level 50.

 

There - this is how your idea works.

 

What is going in here is this - you want to be able to craft more ships (Want!), so you propose an idea that gives you more LH. But it doesn't work like that - ship price would be adjusted to keep the output the same, as these two things are balanced the other way around. You get 42 LH/h because that is the intended possible ship output, and not intended ship output is as such because you get 42 LH/h.

 

This means any change to crafting will need to be balanced to still realize the intended ship output. If you increase LH/h, this means you need to balance it out. Because you're making the crafting output an linear increase across the levels, you need to decide if you want to balance top-down or otherwise - and it's obvious in a game like this it's going to be top down. You care mostly about the high-level crafters, because long game. So you increase cost of ships by 176% or whatever, because this allows you to keep output of high level crafters in check.

 

This way you can implement your idea without changing the balance - which is a totally separate issue.

 

As a side effect of implementing your idea, low-level crafters fall under the intended output of ships. They can craft even less than now, they level up slower and so on. Leveling up is easy to balance by simply adjusting the XP curve, this is fine - output is not. You cannot make low level ships cost less LH, because it would affect high level crafters as well, and balancing top-down is paramount here.

 

In the end the only thing your idea will do is make low-level crafting even more painful and slow than what it is now. I see no reason for it.

 

 

 

But there is still need for more labor hours per hour, considering how much that actually require labor hours already, and more is surely to come.

 

Then propose a change to designated output instead of redoing whole crafting system - that will NOT affect the output anyway.

 

 

Right now, the limited hours severely limits what people can do.

If you want to level crafting, then you gotta avoid wasting hours on anything else.

Same deal if you want to make upgrades.

Or if you want to get resources from your production buildings, well there goes the hours. Currently, this really only benefit traders, yet they simply sell the resources to NPC's instead of crafting sub components and sell thoose to crafters.

 

It's all by design. If crafters were able to do everything by themselves, there would be no reason for it to be a multiplayer game, would there be?

As for traders who sell to NPCs... well... maybe offer better prices than the NPCs...?

 

 

 

Also, my suggestion is not something that have to be a permanent thing, but could be done for testing purposes only. We are in a early access alpha afterall, and only way to actually see the effects of something, is to implement it for a period of time.

 

You can only test few things at a time. "Just plop it and we'll see how it works" is a sure way to never, ever leave the EA. The more things you can test and fool-proof without actually putting them into the long-time testing stage, the less time you loose.

 

 

 

And as I also mentioned, it dont have to be the numbers I came up with. I just picked thoose, cause I like to divide/add with 5. It could start with 35 at level 1, and cap at 65 instead, if thats what the testing showed to be best.

 

As mentioned, your numbers mean nothing. Numbers would not change. If the balance is for levelling to take 50 days, it will take 50 days. That's the part you're failing to understand.

[TheNubCake]

Sigh.

 

*snip*

 

 

As mentioned, your numbers mean nothing. Numbers would not change. If the balance is for levelling to take 50 days, it will take 50 days. That's the part you're failing to understand.

 

And you could not have explained this in your first post, without the belittling attitude?

Sheez...

[Galileus]

Im sorry, but I don't get the accusations of "attacking you". If you're going to get offended because people disagree with you, discussion forums are a weird place to be.

 

If I dislike the idea, I will point it out. No need to get offended over it.