Hotfix 9.72

[maturin]

Let's get real for a minute.

 

The AI changed because they fixed bugs. There was a bug where shot failed to penetrate 10% of the time. There was a bug where AI shot into the water or behind your stern.

 

You'll get used to it; you'll get better. 

[Lennyo]

Penetration has gone up WAY more than 10%. I'm still getting penned by 6 and 9 lb guns at any range in my Belle.

[maturin]

Penetration has gone up WAY more than 10%. I'm still getting penned by 6 and 9 lb guns at any range in my Belle.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'any' range, but this sounds pretty realistic to me.

[akd]

I somehow disagree ... "Challenging" means that a single average player in an average boat shall have good skills to manage the average mission of Its level.

 

But ... fact is that now a single average player with decent skill in an average boat against an average mission of its level is very likely be steamrolled by IA (besides the fact that the precisions of IA gunners is simply superhuman and this should not be, since also the IA should have "average skills").

Then the solution is to rebalance the missions, although arguably the current difficulties give a good mix of challenges for individuals and and pairs / small groups. You can always tailor difficulty using mission level.

[surfimp]

Normally at 8pm Pacific, when I log on, there would be ~600-650 players - i.e. "Medium" population - the last few weeks on PVP1.

 

Last night it was 400 when I logged on and quickly dropped to ~360-380 before server maintenance.

 

I think the accuracy changes to AI are good but need to be adjusted back just a bit. I don't want to go back to the days of "shoot the waves" but I think there's a happy middle ground between the Terminator-like accuracy of patch 9.7 and the Elmer Fudd-like accuracy of pre-9.7.

[victor]

Let's get real for a minute.

 

The AI changed because they fixed bugs. There was a bug where shot failed to penetrate 10% of the time. There was a bug where AI shot into the water or behind your stern.

 

You'll get used to it; you'll get better. 

 

Just a couple of question, since you seem a very skilled and experienced player:

 

1) notwithstanding vawes, weather, heeling, turns, dispersion and so on .. are you really able to score a average of 80% hits also from distance? (I'm not).

 

2) do you think that a percentage of 80% of hit from any distance was normal in battles between frigates using the kind of cannons used in the age of sails?

 

If your answer to both question was "yes", well ... I simply suck at gunning (and it's my own problem) and we have the best age of sails simulator

 

But if even only one answer is "no", well ... maybe there is a problem to discuss about, since we are in Alpha.

 

I repeat: I agree that a mission shall be challenging (meaning: requiring some skill) for an average player of the corresponding level in an average ship, but fact is that now doing alone missions of your level in a normal ship (not gold quality, not top of the notch for your crew command capability and not beefed up with alle the possible upgrades) is just very very difficult (not only "challenging").

 

It's true that you can do lower level missions and it's true that you can bring friends (personally I solved the problem doing missions that are one level less than mine), neverheless there is a golden rule in all the MMORPGs: your missions shall fit your level. Is it really too much asking for that also in NA?

Edited April 15, 2016 by victor

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Penetration has gone up WAY more than 10%. I'm still getting penned by 6 and 9 lb guns at any range in my Belle.

Penetration didn't go up. A bug causing all shots to have a 10% chance to fail to penetrate was removed. Combined with two bugs that caused the AI to shoot like a scrub were also fixed. These two items combined has resulted in players feeling like they're suddenly taking far more damage.

[Mighty_Alex]

So many options instead of complaining on the forums.  YES, the fact that AI can seem to turn effectively with only a spritsail left is annoying.  YES, their re-load times is phenomenal.  However, you should just assume they are exceptional ships with exceptional mods.  

Why should anyone put up with cheating AI? May be the devs should equip AI with rocket boosters and energy shields, so it becomes even more "challenging"? Everyone wants a fair realistic fight, AI or no AI.

[maturin]

 

 

1) notwithstanding vawes, weather, heeling, turns, dispersion and so on .. are you really able to score a average of 80% hits also from distance? (I'm not).

I also think that AI accuracy at long range is excessive. This could be improved.

 

But why would anyone in their right mind fight the AI at long range? I don't think I ever have. It takes too long.

 

So there is a disconnect between the statement 'AI hits too well at range,' and all the wailing about people being unable to win fights and quitting the game.

[victor]

I also think that AI accuracy at long range is excessive. This could be improved.

 

But why would anyone in their right mind fight the AI at long range? I don't think I ever have. It takes too long.

 

So there is a disconnect between the statement 'AI hits too well at range,' and all the wailing about people being unable to win fights and quitting the game.

 

Point is that AI hits too well at any range, since it is the final overall result of 80% that feels somehow excessive (Personally, I equip carronades for missions, so I keep close quarters)

Edited April 15, 2016 by victor

[topas]

 players feeling like they're suddenly taking far more damage.

It's not 'feeling like' it is taking far more damage in real time

[Migui]

Perhaps they could handicap AI at lower levels to not be deadly at any range. But it makes no sense to just breeze through missions at any rank.

[Vernon Merrill]

Why should anyone put up with cheating AI? May be the devs should equip AI with rocket boosters and energy shields, so it becomes even more "challenging"? Everyone wants a fair realistic fight, AI or no AI.

 

 

Did you completely disregard the entire section above what you quoted?   Maybe you just need to get better on lower-tiered missions before you step up to larger vessels.  Again, there are many options to mitigate what you are experiencing.  

 

(Although I do like this thread as a good way to compile a list of opponents I would love to encounter on the open seas. )  

Edited April 15, 2016 by Vernon Merrill

[Atomic Moose]

henry you are wrong as usual  are not feeling we are taking more damage WE ARE TAKING MORE DAMAGE

i am all for the more damage but then take the upgrades away from the ai and make them behave like players as i have said when a ai ships has 70% sails iT cant move just like  a player cant

when a ai ship has 50% crew then make behave like it has 50% crew

take the gold upgrades away from the ai or increase the drop rate of good upgrades for the players

 

i feel the gold upgrades the ai are useing are making the problem worse take them away from the ai

Edited April 15, 2016 by Atomic Moose

[Musuko42]

Is the AI really so much of a problem? I'm still seeing AI missing, shooting into the waves, rolling a broadside past my bow or stern.

 

Is it possible that it's related to the rank of the AI captain, and lower-rank AI miss more? Is that a thing?

[maturin]

 

 

henry you are wrong as usual  are not feeling we are taking more damage WE ARE TAKING MORE DAMAGE

So is the AI, though.

 

Players rely on the AI wasting their shots by presenting their bow to incoming fire. With increased penetration chance, these hits now do more damage. We're now more likely to damage both broadsides, too.

 

Basically, player tactics just got less effective, and people are still adjusting.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Don't misunderstand me.  For sure, you definitely ARE taking more damage than you were prior to the patch.  You are also dealing more damage than you were before the patch.

 

AI's cannon were NOT buffed in a way that your cannon weren't.

AI's accuracy was NOT buffed in a way that your cannon weren't.

 

What happened was:

AI was made more accurate by removing a bug that caused them to: a. Shoot into the water/over your hull, behind your hull very frequently, and b. Shoot at you at angles that had a high chance of bouncing - effectively wasting their shot.  

In addition:

A bug that caused 10% of shots to ALWAYS fail to penetrate was fixed.  A 42lb ball had a 10% chance of not penetrating a cutter.  Ridiculous.

 

This has made AI stronger than they were before.  I agree with that, Admin agrees with that, and I'm sure every last jack in this thread agrees with that.

 

Now, when we hear people talk about "Cheating AI", and crap like that, our ears turn off, because we know for a fact that the AI has the same abilities that you as a player do.  Some of them carry some nice modules - yes.  However, those modules are no better or worse balanced than they are in the hands of a skilled player.

 

So, how about instead of saying that AI cheats, that they have abilities that we as players do not, that they're "unfair", let's do some testing and figure out:

 

1.  Is AI really too strong?  From a game playability standpoint, should players have a no challenge opponent that they can beat one handed while eating a sandwich and drinking a beer while watching Netflix on the other screen?  Is the game more fun giving a decent challenge when you attempt a fight with an AI in the same ship as you, or is it more fun being able to smash ships that are two "tiers" above you with zero effort?

2.  Are the changes to leaks and the resulting damage "increase" from the fixed penetration bug creating an unfun situation?  If so, should damage be scaled down a little to "adjust" for the increased number of penetrating balls?

3.  Are leaks too "firehose" right now?  Are they causing you to sink too fast?  Should the amount of flooding be scaled down, should maybe they not sink you as fast but require more crew to pump to provide a similar level of negative performance, or some other idea?

 

This forum isn't for ranting and complaining and threatening to leave.  This forum is to provide feedback on features and changes to the game.  Feedback isn't "The AI cheats, I'm leaving if you don't fix it."  That's a crap post and doesn't do anyone any good.  

 

Captains need to listen to what the Developers are telling you about what the changes actually did.  If you have hard, concrete evidence that a change isn't acting the way we are stating it should, then please provide the evidence.  Provide feedback on the change, which means suggesting solutions that are designed to better the game as a whole, not the game as you want to play it.

 

Let's be constructive and work towards a better game.  Running from thread to thread ranting and raving isn't the way this is going to work.

[Atomic Moose]

one problem is all ai have the gold upgrades very few players have gold upgrades that poses a problem right there 

and yes the ai does posses things the player doent like sailing with 70% sails 

 

upgrades from drops are hardly ever more did u change upgrade drops cause i harldy see them anymore

give the ai green upgrades like most players have and lets see how that works

why is dev so stubborn to even listen to players point of view you are bleeding players at an alarming rate and that is not good for the game

last nite 2 days after a big patch at 9pm cst on pvp1 the supposed good server there was 450 online down from monday of 500 you are losing players 

stop fixing thing that the players are not saying is broke just cause u think so

[Baron Von WeisenCracker]

Penetration didn't go up. A bug causing all shots to have a 10% chance to fail to penetrate was removed. Combined with two bugs that caused the AI to shoot like a scrub were also fixed. These two items combined has resulted in players feeling like they're suddenly taking far more damage.

Has there ever been thought to equate the level of command (AI) with accuracy of shots?

 

Midshipman: 25-35%

Ensign: 30-40%

2nd lt: 35-45%

1st lt: 40-50%

M&C: 45-55%

Post Capt: 50-60%

Flag Capt: 55-65%

Commodore: 60-75%

 

and so forth? And, then alter the penetration values from there.

 

I agree after last night the AI's are a bit OP now.

 

Ex: got into a mission last night with 2 clan mates against 2 Brigs: One clan mate was in a Brig, me in a Cerberus, and a friend in a Frigate. Now you would think the Frigate would just MAN handle the 2 Brigs out right. Not the case. Here is how the damage broke down:

 

Brig (Clan): had to escape due to damage/leaks in the first 7 minutes of battle ... and it was HIS mission!!!! Marauder, I think

Frigate: 1 box hull left on port side, 3 boxes left on stbd side, none on aft & 1 on fwd section. He had 3 leaks, his rudder was shot, and thankfully had an extra pump to help from flooding!

Cerberus: stbd: 40%, port: 70%, fwd: 50%, aft: 30% (left) -- I had endured 3 leaks and my pump was knocked out (and repaired)

 

Both Brigs were sunk -- but it literally took ALL 3 of us, and then it took 15 minutes for the Frigate and me (Cerberus) to neutralize those 2 brigs. Before the patch, I handled a Brig and a Navy brig, simultaneously, in a Surprise with little problem. Now, I don't think I can take them! or would even try. 

 

And don't dare take your fleet cutters in with you ... they are just Davy Jones fodder now!

 

-Yank

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Part of the discussion is making the low rank AI easier, yes.  It is very possible this change has made Mishipman missions impossible for new players, and that's obviously not a good thing.

 

I killed an AI Snow and Niagara in an Oak Surprise, but it took every bit of my skill.  This may actually be historical - their weight of throw was pretty serious, and with one being able to put me under raking fire, it was dangerous as it would have been in real life, but it may not be "fun".

 

Personally, I found this to be refreshing, challenging, and fun.  I'm only one player though. 

[Hethwill, the Red Duke]

Players have more options than the AI no matter the upgrades. Also the AI doesn't always have exceptional and MC upgrades. Actually their Marines numbers is often Common and sometimes Fine. I have yet to see an AI with copper plating ( they always move slower ) and with Lightweight Ropes and Blocks, which is easily checked with the raise/lower sail speed.

[Prater]

Your rank in Naval Action has nothing to do with how good you are.  When people talk about being able to take on AI as the same rank or level as them, what does that mean?  Your rank has no bearing on anything except what ships you can effectively sail.  There are no levels in NA when it comes to combat.

 

As for new players:  http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/7951-small-vessels-and-the-new-player-experience/

[Lennyo]

 

 

Basically, player tactics just got less effective, and people are still adjusting.

 

No, they are not. They are quitting. Here is my proof:

 

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/280722393127442581/33DFF169A442626F1F02CCC665745149E4EDAA1C/

 

US Prime time, 179 people online at PVP2. This is down 100 people from before the patch on an already dying server.

 

Also, look at the chat. I had helped a midshipman who was getting steamrolled in midshipman missions. He was on the verge of quitting and actually mentioned "I probably would have refunded this if you hadn't come helped". Are refunds even possible? How many other new people have been turned away in the last few days due to getting steamrolled by AI?

 

I've mentioned it in other threads that I actually enjoy the new difficulty of AI, but it is not conducive to retaining players.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Lennyo

[LeBoiteux]

When people talk about being able to take on AI as the same rank or level as them, what does that mean? 

 

 

That means that before you could only have access to AI missions in which AI sailed the same kind of ships as your rank did (and one rank below ?). Now, you can access to all AI missions under your rank and choose to have AI sailing a privateer while you are say in a LGV. 

It enables  players to have easy missions.

[Lennyo]

Penetration didn't go up. A bug causing all shots to have a 10% chance to fail to penetrate was removed. Combined with two bugs that caused the AI to shoot like a scrub were also fixed. These two items combined has resulted in players feeling like they're suddenly taking far more damage.

 

If a 10% bounce chance was removed, then another bug was created. Please check it. 

 

A friend and I dueled each other in Belle Poule's (well armored ship) last night. We started at close range (duel start range) and increased that range. Even at ranges where a large number of shots missed due to dispersion, the shots that hit almost always penetrated. We could not distinguish a difference between penetration values of the 12lb longs vs 6lb longs. The both penetrated the same (a lot).

 

Again, please check the code as this now negates the need for armor whatsoever.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2016 by Lennyo