Maps and combat scenarios - help wanted

[admin]

Hello everyone.

 

We have discussed with you on this forum that you want your maps and scenario generators for organised battles part. 

Certain thing are impossible at this stage like a battle generator (due to other priorities) but on maps we would love to hear your ideas and maybe see examples of the maps and types of battles you want.

 

So what we need from you is

• Map charts
• Potential battle scenarios: Taking into account the battle flow (battle will usually flow into the direction of the wind)

You can go as creative as you want: indicate shallow waters, potential NPC units placements (ai ships, forts, shore batteries), islands, capture points etc.

 

Best map ideas and scenarios would be implemented in the next milestone in September.

 

 

 

[Barberouge]

What would be the biggest map size ? (in miles ?)

[admin]

14 knots is 16 nautical miles per hour.

So for a maximum comfortable battle length (1 hour) we can assume that 10-15 miles is more than enough. 

[Barberouge]

From an Open World point of view, I can see 2 big categories: battles which are started from the navigation view (Navigation Battles), and battles which are fought on determined coastal locations like ports (Goal Battles).

 

From a warfare type point of view, here are some potential ideas:

 

 

1. Coastal warfare

 

Navigation Battles: There would be land as coast or islands, reefs, shoals with different sea/weather conditions. If the large shoals zones would be indicated on the navigation view, it could create interesting navigation and battle tactics. Ships with less draft would have more sailing options to escape or chase.

 

Goal Battles: If some ports aren't "free ports" but smuggling has to be enabled in that region, I'd see some coastal locations like bays with beaches. The smuggler is caught at night loading/unloading cargo with a launch, and has to quickly set sails to escape the patrol or fight.

 

 

2. Fleet warfare

 

Navigation Battles: Same as coastal warfare. If the "navigation to battle" scale enables it, some navigation view coastal characteristics could make for good battle environments, like the Gibraltar Strait. In general, any battle fought close enough to the coast could include some shapes of the navigation view. Sacrificing some escort ships to give merchants some time to escape through islands could be interesting aswell. A naval blockading fleet attacked close enough to a port could generate a naval blockade battle which would include the port defenses, the channel and the harbor, one side having the possibility to enter the safe zone of the port.

 

Goal Battles: Amongst the conquest attack options, one could be to destroy a fleet which is lying at anchor inside a port (fleet destroy battle). Instead of sailing off the coast of the port, the attacking fleet could blockade the entrance of the port itself. Instead of spawning outside of the port, the defending fleet would spawn inside (port blockade battle). Another conquest attack option could be to bomb the port infrastructures or the city (bombing battle). Those maps would include the defenses, the channel, the harbor and its dykes, the outer port, the port. To avoid empty port blitzkrieg campaigns, some time would be given to the defenders to prepare for those battles: the spies got informations about a port attack.

 

 

3. Combined operations

 

Goal Battles: In those conquest battles both the defending fleet and all the defenses would have to be totally destroyed in order to land troops on the docks. Those could be plunder battles or invasion battles. If you can code it, another possibility would be to send launches to land troops under fire. That would be quite fun

[CJFlint]

Hello everyone.

 

We have discussed with you on this forum that you want your maps and scenario generators for organised battles part. 

Certain thing are impossible at this stage like a battle generator (due to other priorities) but on maps we would love to hear your ideas and maybe see examples of the maps and types of battles you want.

 

So what we need from you is

• Map charts
• Potential battle scenarios: Taking into account the battle flow (battle will usually flow into the direction of the wind)

You can go as creative as you want: indicate shallow waters, potential NPC units placements (ai ships, forts, shore batteries), islands, capture points etc.

 

Best map ideas and scenarios would be implemented in the next milestone in September.

Is this going to be similar to say "Age of Pirates 2" or POTBS were you have a navigation map that you use to travel around the world and and for battle you have it goes into like a 1st/3rd person battle mode?

 

If this is the case I would prefer something more like the system "Age of Pirates 2" had. Were when you engaged in battle the navigation map reflected what was in battle map. Taking from POTBS there was a current system and wind both in battle and on your navigation, I would like to see both synced together. Also weather played a huge role in any kind of maritime activity during the period. I would like to see this added and both maps synced. One of the things about potbs I always thought took away from the realism was when you engaged in battle on the open sea, the battle map did not at all reflect what was on the navigation map, which took away from game play immersion.

 

So battle map with currents, weather, land masses (with in reason) that reflect what is on the navigation map. Now I have spent my child hood and adult life sailing and boating, weather and currents play a huge role in any maritime activity and should be shown. 

 

If this is a "World Wide Open World Game" I would like the land masses and weather conditions to reflect what part of the world your in. 

 

Also I have some books about the period, I would like the charts (mini maps ect) them selves to, to resemble real maps from the period. It dosn't have exact, just resemble them.

 

I also agree with what barberrouge  on what he was saying regarding the combat side.

[admin]

Would love to hear Digby, Adair and Verhoeven in this thread on the battle maps. As they were requesting he custom maps.

[jokash]

I also think that the "Age of Pirates" map system is the best option...there may be balancing issues or problems like that but whats the alternative...sailing realisticly for hours or unrealisticly fast sail ships. You could only see other player ships if they are in your line of sight on the navigation map thus you will not have just frigates running for the helpless merchants, you have to search known trade routes and as a merchant you try to find a route that isnt too long and filled with enemy ships.

[CJFlint]

I also think that the "Age of Pirates" map system is the best option...there may be balancing issues or problems like that but whats the alternative...sailing realisticly for hours or unrealisticly fast sail ships. You could only see other player ships if they are in your line of sight on the navigation map thus you will not have just frigates running for the helpless merchants, you have to search known trade routes and as a merchant you try to find a route that isnt too long and filled with enemy ships.

I agree 100 %, think age of pirates 2 did have a pretty good in game navigation system. The navigation map view (which allowed fast vast distances travel via time compression) matched what was on the your 3rd or 1st person view. Also the game was set up so you needed to collect maps to accurately navigate on land and sea. It was also allot of fun collecting them and looking at them.

 

I would like to see Naval Action take use a similar system, but expand on it. Here's a link to how ships would check there depths http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/swing-the-lead.html Another instrument is the sextant.

 

Age of Pirates 2 (Gentlemen of Fortune mod) was probably my fav Age of Sail Game of all time. There is a ton of good lessons to learned from that game. The reality it is a bit dated now. I really want to see a 3rd installment. 

[PIerrick de Badas]

Scenario:

- Destroy ennemy fleet (ship vs ships)

- Destroy ennemy small Fortification (ship VS ship+fortificaton)

- Land troops to a point (Ship v Ship)

- Land troops to a point and then attack the main port (landing troop to destroy a large fortification which protect a port). Then when landed troops have destroy the main battery, enter the port and destroy the target (ships/fleet...)

- Feed a port (passing throw the blockoading fleet) (ship v ship)

- Blockade a port (sunk the ships who try to past)

- Catch a special ship. (IA choose a ship into the "defending fleet". This ship has to join a point withtou sunking. Rest of the team defend it at all cost. opponent don't know wich ship they have to sunk)

 

Maps:

I would love to get differents kinf of water with Open sea and lands. The small ships like frigate could go near the coast when line ship have to stay away from it exect if usings channels.

[Adair]

I like Plerrick's suggested scenarios. I think that covers all the basics.

 

The thing about the maps is that unless there's a reason to be near land, most battles took place on just a plain, blank map. And if the wind was blowing you towards a lee shore, you and your opponent may soon have bigger things to worry about than blowing each other out of the water.

[Capt Warren Loly]

It would be nice if battles are fought on the open Sea. In potbs you travel on the open sea and when you attack you go in a different encounter. This is very unrealistic. I suggest having battle on the open sea and anyone of any nation can join in at any time.

[Ampen]

I think both open sea and archipelago battles could be interesting. With open sea battles more rigid tactics are needed, more care need to be taken to wind etc, while fighting amongst islands will require not only different ships, but also different tactics, and a bit more creative approach to clinch a victory.

 

Archipelago battles could be coupled with certain objectives as well, as a few of those mentioned above, like blockade, or siezing a fortress.

[L'Abattage]

Not sure if it is possible or how exactly it would work in your game, but there are many times when large amphibious landings would be taken to try to capture a towns and control entire regions. Examples are:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cartagena_de_Indias

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Quebec

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_expedition_against_Cuba

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nassau

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pensacola_(1781)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baltimore

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Washington

 

Like I said not sure how to implement this, but creative assembly does a good job at this with their total war series esp. with empire total war and napoleon total war. I am really looking forward to this game.

[Ned Loe]

^{http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Battle_of_Trafalgar,_Plate_1.jpg}

[Ned Loe]

http://s7.postimg.org/ock4quviz/4453454.jpg

 

Destroy enemy fleet (ship vs ships)

Board a Leader Ship

Destroy 2 gun emplacements.

Start a town blockade.

[BullpupBarrie]

Outgunned French* fleet flees a British* blockading squadron, and makes for a lee shore in an attempt to escape, hoping their enemy won't dare to follow them.

 

A randomly generated shore line could be interesting (obviously I don't know if that's possible), with the French players maybe getting some incomplete maps to represent them knowing the local waters better.  This way they could attempt to even the numbers by baiting the British onto rocks.

 

 

* Insert alternatives to taste.

[Barberouge]

Difficult to propose a map without knowing the punch of a broadside and the maneuverability of the ships.

 

8 nautical miles map featuring a combined operations battle:

 

 

dark blue is deep sea

light blue is shoals

light brown is land at low tide

dark brown is land at hight tide

red is attackers (showing a 20 ships main line sailing, with max range and effective range)

yellow is defenders (showing a 20 ships main line in static line formation, with max range and effective range)

black is forts (with 36-pound range and 64-pound range)

 

1 and 2: attackers spawn points

3 and 4: defenders spawn points

5 and 6: landing beaches

7: port

8: port fort

9: harbor fort

10: sea fort

11: channel fort

12: Kraken

13: harbor

14: channel

15: Bay of Death

16: islands

 

The ranges and scales aren't excessively precise. The forts have to be built by the port owners, and cannons have to be put in the forts. The port and the forts have garrisons. Landing troops in 5 and 6 enables to attack and possibly take the harbor fort (9) or the port fort (8) - but it decreases the number of available men (and cannons ?) on the ships. Landing troop in the port (7) without having taken or destroyed the port fort (8) can be dangerous.

 

The battle can be fought in low, high or mid tide with corresponding currents (which I didn't draw). Some dykes could be added. The wind can be 360°. It shouldn't change too much during the battle.

 

Both defenders and attackers have a wide range of viable tactics at their disposal. Depending on the tide and the wind, the defenses, and their fleet composition, they can choose to attack/defend the harbor fort by controlling the landing points, to destroy the outer forts, to destroy the opponents fleet, or to use cheesy tactics with frigates.

 

The harbor (13) can be defended by a static line, provided the line is heavy enough and there aren't strong forts that could be taken by the attackers. If it's mid-tide, the current might be too strong.

 

The channel (14) is kind of a bet. A leeward fleet usually has an advantage between coasts. But if it's pushed downwind, it could end stuck in the harbor or in the open sea with no more advantage. Frigates can be sent through the shoals.

 

The Bay of Death (15) is... a Bay of Death !

 

And the islands (16) are there to provide interesting tactics when the fleets sail between the landing point and the channel, or engage a fight in that zone. Ships of the line don't have all options open, and frigates can shape the battle going for the bows or the sterns of the opponents. More islands could be added. One of my favorite PotBS maps was Jawbone Bay.

 

The purpose doesn't have to be taking the port. Some forts can be destroyed, and the attackers would come back before the defenders could re-build them.

 

The sea fort looks like this

But all this should be corrected after we know how fights look like.

[admin]

Difficult to propose a map without knowing the punch of a broadside and the maneuverability of the ships.

 

But all this should be corrected after we know how fights look like.

 

beautiful work

would write you in skype

 

on this focus test we wont make it but next round will try to build something like this.

[Barberouge]

Thanks. You shouldn't bother too much with that map though. Basically I just wanted to show the possible tactical effects of changeable tides and currents, and how a battle with troops landing can open options aswell as dynamic defenses building.

 

Also I read that a leeward fleet is always at a disadvantage, but it's not necessarily true depending on the situation and the ships sizes.

 

Any historical map could become a good basis, but once again how fights are working will tell how maps could be setup. Especially the islands shapes and sizes should be aimed at creating diverse tactics. So maybe this map wouldn't give as many interesting options.

 

Looking forward to the first focus testing

 

Also some "admin" already got my skype.

[Ned Loe]

Ok, so I spent some time and created this map sample. (30 mins) I can put more details and objects any time. I can copy any real world maps and redesign it. I have endless ideas for maps.  If you need any help you can contact me here : donmic21@yahoo.com 

 

I hope this link works:

 

http://postimg.org/image/qz0z0pni9/

 

Btw, I speak Russian/Ukrainian/English

[Ned Loe]

I will have more time this week and will work on some new maps and ideas.

[Ned Loe]

Ok, here is a map I call "Trinity Islands" with 2 islands and a landmass. 

[Ned Loe]

And one more:

[Ned Loe]

Here is a scenario for a map "Dead Man's Cove"

 

1. Destroy Fort

2. Sink All Enemy Fleet

3. Invade Town

(Optional) Save Friendly NPC for a bonus reward.

 

Feel free to give any other ideas for this map! 

 

[Ned Loe]

Scenario: 

 

1.Protect at least 2 towns from enemy destruction.

2.Destroy all enemy ships.

(Optional) Protect 3 towns for a bonus reward.