The Grind

[Ted Nougat]

The problem isn't your ship or rank or any grind you might have. The problem is the 25 ship limit in port battles. Your clan is going to want as high a BR as possible.  Your Surprise or Cerberus is going to dilute that BR rating when you take one of the 25 places a Constitution or 3rd might have taken. That's just how it is.

[la Touche-Treville]

This is good news

 

Some changes in PB will also aid ships bellow 4-th rank, ports will be split into 3 groups in a patch or two:

• Shallow water - up to brigs
• Normal ports - all frigates
• Regional Capitals - ships of the line

 

This is great news!

Howeverr I agree with above comment by Ted that the BR limit also needs to be capped per battle type, that will enforce players to mix and max ships to best effect

[Babble]

There are two issues. The first one is a game mechanics issue that so far no one has been able to come up with a fix for.

 

#1  The game pushes you towards larger and larger ships.  Progression is faster once you get to larger ships because you gain more xp and gold.  SOL creep is a major problem.  There aren't that many disadvantages with using a larger ship, and once you get one, you can farm gold, perhaps making 1 million gold in a single port battle.

 

To counter sol creep, many of us proposed that xp requirements be increased.  But that obviously has not been a good suggestion and I myself admit that I was wrong to be one of the many people who suggested this.  Some other mechanic has to be thought up to slow sol creep.  My suggestion would be to make 1-2 rates travel 25% slower on the Open Sea.  Have 3rd rates travel 5-10% slower on the Open Sea.  But I don't know if this is a good idea.  Back to the increased amount requirement for xp, this leads into #2.

if i may propose a solution.  

 

1 only allow the capturing of Ai ships at frigate and below so all higher tier ships are player made.  People will risk them less if there is actual loss.  

 

2 make all rated ships ,(1 and second at least 3rd possibly as well), require a commission from the admiralty.  I go into detail on how that works in my rantings "The road map" section 8.

 

3. make 3rd rates and up harder to maneuver.   I mean difficult to turn.  Rateds should excel in line fighting.  Frigates should excel at hunting.  If we make SoLs harder to turn then you will see a lot less of them wandering around the OS when they start getting stern camped by every able captain out there.

[Blood Eagle]

They shouldn't allow you to capture any NPC ships other then traders and maybe even then you only get what they are carrying and not the ship itself.

 

Capping ships should be a PVP feature, and should grant you the entire ship, full dur, meaning the player who losses it losses entire ship.

[surfimp]

Some other mechanic has to be thought up to slow sol creep.

 

For whosoever commands the sea,

commands the trade;

Whosoever commands the trade of the world,

commands the riches of the world,

and consequently the world itself.

- Sir Walter Raleigh

"It's the Economy, Prater!"

In my view,

In order to prevent the spread of SOLs with Naval Action, you have to be able to disrupt the trade routes supplying the materials to build those ships.

 

In order to do that, you have to ensure the trade goods are moving through the Open World, or else there is almost no possibility of interfering with the constructions of SOLs.

 

Currently, the ship teleport mechanic originally introduced to help "lost" sailors is being abused for the purposes of risk-free transport of cargoes from ports to the capitols. Making it impossible to stop the flow of materials needed to construct unlimited amounts of SOLs....

 

To say nothing of their relatively easy availability via capture from NPC fleets.

 

--

 

My solutions:

1) Remove the ability to teleport ships.

2) Keep the ability to teleport players.

3) Replace ship teleport with an autopilot feature that sails the ship through the OW to its destination.

4) Eliminate NPC 3rd rate fleets.

 

Having vital resources moving through the open world would create a massive explosion of meaningful activity for sub-Frigate ships to participate in, in their traditional privateering roles.  We've already seen this starting to happen, thanks to the removal of Reinforcements... player traders have been getting interdicted by player raiders, and now more and more player warships are stepping up to fulfill the escort and coastal patrol roles. It's WONDERFUL!

 

We should go one step further and plug the ship teleport gap once and for all. This would result in a tremendous boon to PVP and meaningful RVR participation outside the port battle meta which is currently causing 100% the "must grind" and "SOL creep" issues identified here. Plus, it would completely alleviate "the grind" as a bad thing, as you'd have tons of fun stuff to do (capture, defend, trade) while leveling up.

 

It would be great IMHO.

Edited April 4, 2016 by surfimp

[Prater]

I know that labor hours were added to sols to make them more difficult to make.  That hasn't fixed anything.  I think Alex Conner gave the best solution economy wise.  Make ships take real life time to complete, like Eve. 

 

I'd like to see the production rate on higher end ships slowed down a lot (reflecting that it would take a captain a very long time to get command of such a ship), glaringly overgunned/overpowered ships like the 1st rates cut down to historical levels, and probably dura reduced (for the top end ships if nothing else). A month to build a Victory, 10 days to build a Bellona, 5 days to build a Trincomalee etc, 2 days to build a Surprise, something like that.
 
With a build rate like that and historical armaments (3rds rates a lot closer in power to 1st rates than at present)  the sensible policy would be to concentrate on 3rd rates for building a fleet with perhaps a 1st rate or 2 for the admirals. If one side goes for only/mainly 1st rates, they won't be able to compete on numbers or firepower and will get overwhelmed. 4th rates (5 days) would be solid work horses for escort duties or lighter fleet actions, half the time needed for a Bellona but more than enough firepower to handle frigates. And ships like the Constitution (20 days) would be a serious luxury, because you'd be able to build 4 Ledas in the same time, any 2 of which would be able to beat the Connie.
 
This also offers a way to bring obsolete types like the 18 pdr 2 decked 5th rate ship into contention. Sure, it's the same firepower as a Leda in a slower package, but if it can be built in 2.5 days instead of 5 then this ship would be worth considering.
 
Such a system would allow ships to match up to their historical counterparts while retaining a good ship balance in the open world, because the really powerful monsters would never be able to built in large enough numbers to dominate.

[Slamz]

The real root problem is simply "port flipping mechanics".

 

Port flips cannot be governed by a single fight of 25v25. That will always result in "the 25 biggest possible ships, nobody else is welcome" type fights.

 

Port flipping needs to be a more complex operation involving a lot of different types of activities, some of which are suitable for solo captains and ships of various sizes, even including cargo ships. "Alternate flip mechanics" are a whole other topic but that's what we need to be discussing.

[Ted Nougat]

1) Remove the ability to teleport ships.

 

The inability to do this is what causeed me to quit Eve. You're out on a three hour roam, and then real life happens. You have to park your ship and then you will never be able to get it back, unless you happen to be in a group headed that way and you tag along in something disposable. Which is basically never because it's a giant pain in the ass.

 

If I wasn't able to teleport a ship, I'd quit Naval Action and never bother with it again, just like I finally did with Eve.

 

I think the game is fine the way it is. You're not going to find a perfect way for people to be an easy target for you.

[Slamz]

 

The inability to do this is what causeed me to quit Eve. You're out on a three hour roam, and then real life happens. You have to park your ship and then you will never be able to get it back, unless you happen to be in a group headed that way and you tag along in something disposable. Which is basically never because it's a giant pain in the ass.

 

Comparing apples to elephants. You're screwed in EVE because so many ganks are so hard to avoid or escape.

 

I have logged out in the middle of hostile enemy territory in Naval Action no problem. Speed fit Trincom + understanding of game mechanics + "defensive tagging" = I am not very worried about being able to get out. Ganks are far easier to avoid in this game.

 

Ships are also worth far less in this game so even if you lose a durability on your Trincom, so what. Having more ship durability than I have parking spots for has been a bigger problem for me than ship loss.

 

 

The only real use of teleports in this game is to allow you to basically be in two places at the same time. I'm fleet grinding in the Yucatan but I'm ready to fight in Haiti. Just a teleport away. It solves some problems but creates others.

[surfimp]

 

The inability to do this is what causeed me to quit Eve. You're out on a three hour roam, and then real life happens. You have to park your ship and then you will never be able to get it back, unless you happen to be in a group headed that way and you tag along in something disposable. Which is basically never because it's a giant pain in the ass.

 

If I wasn't able to teleport a ship, I'd quit Naval Action and never bother with it again, just like I finally did with Eve.

 

I think the game is fine the way it is. You're not going to find a perfect way for people to be an easy target for you.

 

Did you see #3? The part where people who didn't want to sail the OW, could send their ship on autopilot to a port of their choosing?  How is that not a reasonable compromise solution?

 

The current teleport mechanic is:

 

1) A huge factor in the proliferation of SOLs. Because trade has essentially become risk-optional, there is no natural brake on the construction of ships beyond labor hours. And as we've seen, labor hours are really no brake at all.

 

2) Making smaller ships almost completely pointless in the game as it stands now. Adjustments to ports mentioned by Ink above will help this somewhat (by making certain ports only capturable by smaller ships) but even with those changes, there's very little point to pirating or privateering of trade ships as it doesn't begin to make a dent in the supply of goods, and hence is irrelevant in an RVR sense.

 

3) Because of 1 & 2, small ships are just "something to be gotten through" while moving towards the end game of SOL-dominated port battles... which leads to the problem wherein players literally forego PVP at lower ranks in order to focus on grinding PVE, so they can - after hundreds of hours - finally do something in port battles.

 

Until all trade has to move through the open world, these problems are going to persist, and players are going to focus solely on the one thing that has a meaningful RVR impact, either A ) grinding PVE to level up as fast as possible or B ) capturing ports to paint the map and "win".

 

However, if trade had to move through the open world, then players of all stripes would have a number of new "things to do" in the game: sail a trader, raid a trader, escort a trader, defend trade routes. Players are already focusing more on raiding, patrolling and escorting thanks to the removal of the Reinforcement mechanic, and there is more and better PVP as consequence. I think we just need to go one step further. It will add so much to the game.

Edited April 4, 2016 by surfimp

[Ted Nougat]

Did you see #3? The part where people who didn't want to sail the OW, could send their ship on autopilot to a port of their choosing?  How is that not a reasonable compromise solution?

 

As long as I don't have to leave crap all over the place, I'm happy.

[surfimp]

As long as I don't have to leave crap all over the place, I'm happy.

 

I definitely agree that would suck, and that's not what I'm talking about at all.

 

I've never played Eve, so I don't really know what is / isn't happening there, and it's not my frame of reference for requesting changes to Naval Action.

 

I definitely don't want to get rid of teleport without having some kind of "no player interaction mandatory" solution to replace it, for moving ships through the open world.

 

I just don't want there to be a "no risk" solution for moving ships through the open world, because as we're seeing, that's leading to other problems and preventing a whole style of play from being feasible / meaningful.

 

And to be sure, I don't enjoying capping the ships of players that are AFK, I want to work for it!

[Old Tom]

How about changing the battle requirements instead?

Rather than have a 25 ship limit, why not a limit on the number of guns and/or crews that can be taken into battle?

with say a max number of 5 SOL

 

Just an idea.

[The Spud]

So what we want is more Frigates in Port Battles. What about this:

 

- Keep the deep water and shallow water PB, nothing inbetween.

- The SoL fight over the battle rate, and the Frigs fight to destroy the towers (or forts).

 

In practice this would mean, that a port battle would exist for example out of 15 SoL and 10 Frigates.

 

Each would be fighting in their own ring in the same sea, so with the implement of land in sight the frigates would fight close to the port. And the SoL would fight further away from the ports. The two rings (or battles)  merge or "unlock" as soon as A) The SoL BR of the attackers is 2:1 or the fort or towers are destroyed. So essentialy the following situations might occur:

 

1 - Frigates destroy the towers or fort before the SoL lower the enemy BR to a 2:1, all the frigs join the fight against the SoL until the BR difference is met.

2 - The SoL get the BR to 2:1 before the fort or towers are destroyed, all SoL now help destroy the fort or towers.

3 - The Frigates don't destroy the forts and the SoL don't get the BR down enough. The attackers lose.

 

This would give for some interesting 2 stage port battles.

[The Spud]

So what we want is more Frigates in Port Battles. What about this:

 

- Keep the deep water and shallow water PB, nothing inbetween.

- The SoL fight over the battle rate, and the Frigs fight to destroy the towers (or forts).

 

In practice this would mean, that a port battle would exist for example out of 15 SoL and 10 Frigates.

 

Each would be fighting in their own ring in the same sea, so with the implement of land in sight the frigates would fight close to the port. And the SoL would fight further away from the ports. The two rings (or battles)  merge or "unlock" as soon as A) The SoL BR of the attackers is 2:1 or the fort or towers are destroyed. So essentialy the following situations might occur:

 

1 - Frigates destroy the towers or fort before the SoL lower the enemy BR to a 2:1, all the frigs join the fight against the SoL until the BR difference is met.

2 - The SoL get the BR to 2:1 before the fort or towers are destroyed, all SoL now help destroy the fort or towers.

3 - The Frigates don't destroy the forts and the SoL don't get the BR down enough. The attackers lose.

 

This would give for some interesting 2 stage port battles.

 

Also, and maybe even more fun, we could just let the game choose 10 or 15 random ship types that can enter. So you would have 15 Free slots, where you can bring in whatever you like. And the other 10 are random frigate slots and will be generated by the game, and are the same for both sides. Like 2 cerbs, 3 surprises a ren, a BP a frig and a conni.

 

So whenever a flag is bought, the attackers and defender see what ships they need to bring. So its not just bring your biggest ships, and whoever brings the biggest wins. If you fail to get 3 surprises in the battle, you are starting with a handicap. 

 

Some players who realy like a belle poule or a renomee, but fail to sail it as it is of no use in PB, can now sail the ship they very much like. People could become experts in sailing a specific type of ship. Would make them more valuable in this game...

[Mr Ludy]

I've been playing this game for 42 hours and I do nothing but PvP. For the first few levels I had to grind missions in a cutter, but once I reached a snow it is possible to pick fights easily. I cannot speak for port battles as I have not attempted to join one yet, but PvP is plentiful and easy to find when sailing small boats.

[Mrdoomed]

I've been playing this game for 42 hours and I do nothing but PvP. For the first few levels I had to grind missions in a cutter, but once I reached a snow it is possible to pick fights easily. I cannot speak for port battles as I have not attempted to join one yet, but PvP is plentiful and easy to find when sailing small boats.

Same here man. Been playing since EA and have done nothing but pvp or harvesting supplies from traders in between. The grind is a lie lol.

[Vllad]

 

 

If you don't put 200 hours into this game, you cannot play the PVP reasonably.

 

 

This isn't even remotely true.

 

You can log in on your first hour and start pvping. You pull a cutter and jump small ships or traders. Their is a ton of PVP to be had with zero grind. Your entire port makes no sense to me. Port battles are kind of broken and most don't even contain PVP.

 

You can more than reasonably pvp with zero hours grind.

[Blood Eagle]

The PVP you can instantly get is lame. Most people want to take part in the conquest game, politics, and on a older server that will always have huge grind attached to it, until they fix the port battle system. Once they remove SOLs from deep water ports, the game will be better.

[Ruthless4u]

The PVP you can instantly get is lame. Most people want to take part in the conquest game, politics, and on a older server that will always have huge grind attached to it, until they fix the port battle system. Once they remove SOLs from deep water ports, the game will be better.

And what would you use SOL's for, unless your talking about restricting the to regional capitals.

[surfimp]

Small ship PVP is totally fun. I have 250hrs in and am still sailing around in Privateers and Basic Cutters - by choice!! I usually have little trouble finding at least a few good fights every session. I move around the map based on how the ports shift and seek targets of opportunity. Sometimes I become a target for someone else. The thing furthest from my mind is my rank.

TL; DR: the grind is only there if you make it be

Edited April 7, 2016 by surfimp

[Vllad]

The PVP you can instantly get is lame. Most people want to take part in the conquest game, politics, and on a older server that will always have huge grind attached to it, until they fix the port battle system.

 

Then you aren't thinking this game through very well.

 

Port Battles aren't the only political driving factor to this game.

 

You can impact the econ that produces ships by raiding your enemies primary trader area's. You can camp their capitols to prevent trade going in and out what is likely their most dominant ship building area. I can keep going but if you need to be told how important open sea's is to the political situation then I hope you aren't on my team.

[Slamz]

The PVP you can instantly get is lame. Most people want to take part in the conquest game, politics, and on a older server that will always have huge grind attached to it, until they fix the port battle system. Once they remove SOLs from deep water ports, the game will be better.

 

If you want to hurt the enemy, you can do more damage by sailing a Cutter or Snow and sinking some traders than you'll ever do by capping ports in a 1st rate.

 

Ports don't matter in this game, unless your team is down to their last 5 or so. If Britain fell from 90 ports to 20 points they would literally not be weakened in the slightest. I hope this changes in the future but as it stands today, "playing the conquest game" really means sinking ships on the high seas, especially traders.

 

Most ports in this game have no practical value beyond trying to draw out a fight.

[surfimp]

Then you aren't thinking this game through very well.

Port Battles aren't the only political driving factor to this game.

You can impact the econ that produces ships by raiding your enemies primary trader area's. You can camp their capitols to prevent trade going in and out what is likely their most dominant ship building area. I can keep going but if you need to be told how important open sea's is to the political situation then I hope you aren't on my team.

And if some changes can be made to teleporting of cargos, eg. removing them, then this - trader interdiction and, more importantly, trade in general - will become even more important to the RVR game.

I think the devs get this and that we're going to see good changes in these areas that will result in cool expansions of non port battle gameplay.

[victor]

And if some changes can be made to teleporting of cargos, eg. removing them, then this - trader interdiction and, more importantly, trade in general - will become even more important to the RVR game.

I think the devs get this and that we're going to see good changes in these areas that will result in cool expansions of non port battle gameplay.

 

I do not think that there will be a lot of players that will enjoy a game in which, just to deliver some goods from production sites to factories, you have to waste two hours doing almost nothing else that looking and the screen with no xp gain (while you could have going here an there with yor combat ship gaining a crapton of gold and xp). Fun factor has to be taken into account too and there is a limit of boredom also for manufacturers and traders, beyond which they stop playing.

Edited April 8, 2016 by victor