What this game simulates?

[bakters]

I just joined and I was in my first Small Battles.  The question I have is about what this game tries to simulate?  Because from what I have seen so far, it does not simulate much at all...

 

For example, I drop all the sails and my boat stops.  That's not how boats behave.  Real boats drift downwind, or across the wind more likely, due to the wind pushing against bare rigging and the hull.

 

Then, where is inertia?  I see very little of that.  You drop all the sails and your boat stops pretty much immediately.  It should keep on drifting even upwind for quite a while.

 

Then, I push my boom against the wind in manual, and the speed does not change at all.  Why?

 

In the end I'm starting to suspect that this game does not simulate neither aerodynamic nor hydrodynamic forces acting upon the ship on the water.   I also suspect that forces on masts are not simulated.  Partially damaged masts hold up to the full force of the sails just fine, it seems to me.  

 

Am I totally wrong?  Do I miss something?  Is it a work in progress and the Devs promised to improve upon it, or is it as it's supposed to work?

 

(BTW - Sail trim on downwind courses looks kinda atrocious, actually.)

[maturin]

Then, I push my boom against the wind in manual, and the speed does not change at all.  Why?

 

What are you talking about? Oversheeting or backing gaff booms absolutely changes speed, causing you to decelerate. I recommend getting a grasp of the gameplay before running to the forums to pass judgement.

 

However, manual sailing for gaff-rigs isn't implemented fully yet. It's the feature that keeps getting kicked down the road.

 

 

 

 

(BTW - Sail trim on downwind courses looks kinda atrocious, actually.)

Which sails?

 

 

 

 

For example, I drop all the sails and my boat stops.  That's not how boats behave.  Real boats drift downwind, or across the wind more likely, due to the wind pushing against bare rigging and the hull.

Gameplay compromise. Sure, a ship with all sail doused will drift downwind at a knot or so in most conditions. But if this happened in the game, the devs would have to implement anchors, which are incredibly complicated.

[bakters]

What are you talking about? Oversheeting or backing gaff booms absolutely changes speed, causing you to decelerate. I recommend getting a grasp of the gameplay before running to the forums to pass judgement.

 

However, manual sailing for gaff-rigs isn't implemented fully yet. It's the feature that keeps getting kicked down the road.

 

 

Which sails?

 

 

Gameplay compromise. Sure, a ship with all sail doused will drift downwind at a knot or so in most conditions. But if this happened in the game, the devs would have to implement anchors, which are incredibly complicated.

I haven't noticed any real difference whether I oversheeted or backed my main sail.  Maybe half a knot, nothing apparent.  Definitely nothing I expected.  If gaff rig is not implemented, then no other sails are implemented either.  All of them work based on the same principles.  

 

All fore-and-aft sails are oversheeted in all downwind points of sail.  

 

Drift is not something that happens when you stop.  It happens all the time.  If drift is not implemented, that implies that wind force is probably not implemented either...  Anchor is easy.  You drop your sails, drop anchor, then you stop.

[maturin]

I haven't noticed any real difference whether I oversheeted or backed my main sail.  Maybe half a knot, nothing apparent.  Definitely nothing I expected. 

Because it's not finished yet. At this point manual sails are not terribly useful for schooners and the like. But if you try oversheeting while closehauled you will see a definite difference. 

 

 

If gaff rig is not implemented, then no other sails are implemented either.  All of them work based on the same principles. 

Are you going to come here after playing one small battle and tell everyone how the sailing model works? For ships you haven't even used yet? 

This is a videogame. It works because of code. Every kind of sail is treated differently by the code. The square sails have been brought up to an acceptable level of simulation and the gaff sails have not. Let me know if there is anything unclear about this.

 

 

All fore-and-aft sails are oversheeted in all downwind points of sail. 

Jibs and staysails, yes. Their animations aren't adapted to downwind sailing.

But the gaffs are constrained by the shrouds and backstays, and can't be sheeted out much further. These aren't 1900s Herreshoff yachts.

 

 

 

Drift is not something that happens when you stop.  It happens all the time.  If drift is not implemented, that implies that wind force is probably not implemented either...  Anchor is easy.  You drop your sails, drop anchor, then you stop.

...

Yeah, easy. I'm sure the devs will code anchors in their lunchbreak today, cuz it's so easy.

[admin]

kinda atrocious comment

 

 

I suggest you read the main steam page properly or any materials we wrote ourselves especially part on sailing.

You will never find any phrase saying that it is a full sim. 

 

Inertia exists but it is much smaller for a cutter which you probably are sailing - it is a rookie ship and its goal is not to overwhelm the player with complexity. Most players start to experience sailing problems in a brig

 

For multiple gameplay reasons we consider all ships to be perfectly trimmed, ballast perfectly placed, masts perfectly cut, when stationary we consider that ships are at anchor (even thought it is not implemented visually for fps reasons). Drift/leeway are implemented but switched off. Some other features like "calm" - no wind - are also cut or switched off

 

The main reason: It is a realistic action game. It provides very realistic depiction of the combat and sailing concepts we (devs) believe are important. The concepts we consider not important or confusing are switched off. There are multiple things in sailing that are implemented extremely well for the game environment (e.g. frigate tacking). 

 

Based on your comments you were looking for something different and I believe games exist that cater to your desire for 100% realistic apparent wind implementation, gales, leeway or stationary drift. We had complaints before that frigate duels are not 4-5 hours as they should be, but we have no plans to cater to their requests - because its a game.

[maturin]

 

Really easy.

 

 

 

It sounds like you are offended that the game doesn't have a full physical simulation of all the forces involved. Like it's some crime that the game doesn't plug in all the force vectors from elementary physics and just let the ships sort themselves out from there.

 

I wonder if you realize that your expectations are impossible to meet. Have you played the freeware HMS Surprise simulator? Even after that impossibly complex effort, with zero graphical representations, you still end up with a deeply-flawed simulation. Excessive leeway, temperamental rig balance, feeble windward performance, strange heeling and roll behavior, no wave simulation and fantastically exaggerated speed in high wind conditions.

[Fizzer]

While the OP is a bit over-critical, he does bring up some good points.

 

I think the mechanics for fore-aft riggers are a bit wonky.  To the OP - as you move to square riggers, I think you'll notice an improvement in sail behavior and aerodynamics, though non-sail aerodynamics do not appear to be implemented yet.  There is still some work to be done for sure.

 

Hydrodynamics need quite a bit of work I think.  A downside to the reduced "flipability" of ships has been some strange behavior in collision scenarios.  I don't care how fast my victory is going, I shouldn't be able to push a constitution sideways through the water with only a minor loss to my forward speed.  

 

There are some issues with momentum and hull drag that I can only assume are works in progress.  Do remember OP, this is an early access Alpha version of the game.  Patches with fixes and content come regularly and the devs are quite responsive to bug reports and communicating with the players.

[bakters]

Because it's not finished yet. But if you try oversheeting while closehauled you will see a definite difference. At this point manual sails are not terribly useful for schooners and the like.

 

 

Are you going to come here after playing one small battle and tell everyone how the sailing model works? For ships you haven't even used yet? 

This is a videogame. It works because of code. Every kind of sail is treated differently by the code. The square sails have been brought up to an acceptable level of simulation and the gaff sails have not. Let me know if there is anything unclear about this.

 

 

Jibs and staysails, yes. Their animations aren't adapted to downwind sailing.

But the gaffs are constrained by the shrouds and backstays, and can't be sheeted out much further. These aren't 1900s Herreshoff yachts.

 

 

 

...

Yeah, easy. I'm sure the devs will code anchors in their lunchbreak today, cuz it's so easy.

1.  What is the difference?  Heeling moment changes or just the speed?  Does your center of effort change, especially in relation to center of resistance?  All of that should heel your ship over and make it point upwind without touching the rudder.

 

The same forces act on square rigs.

 

2.  I played two battles.  Mostly I'm asking questions about how this game works, and if my initial impressions are correct.  So far they seem to hold up...

 

The forces acting on all sails are of the same nature.  If every sail needs to be "implemented" separately, then none of them are actually implemented. 

 

3.  On a gaff rig there is either one single backstay, or two of them.  In case there are two of them the downwind one needs to be loosened.   In case of a single central backstay, the boom must clear it.  Having your sails "close-hauled" on downwind courses is so inefficient that I'd need to see it to believe it.  (I do not know the proper English nomenclature, so maybe I used some words incorrectly.)

 

4.  Yes, I'd suspect that coding one more button to press is even easier than that.  

[maturin]

The same forces act on square rigs.

And the square riggers react to them properly. Bracing up square yards on a broad reach will, for instance, increase heel and reduce speed fast. AFAIK the increased heel doesn't translate to weather helm, because the game isn't a complete sailing simulation by any means.

 

The cutter's response to oversheeting of the boom is not--I repeat--not yet implemented.

 

 

 

 

3.  On a gaff rig there is either one single backstay, or two of them.  In case there are two of them the downwind one needs to be loosened.   In case of a single central backstay, the boom must clear it.  Having your sails "close-hauled" on downwind courses is so inefficient that I'd need to see it to believe it.  (I do not know the proper English nomenclature, so maybe I used some words incorrectly.)

The gaff booms already 'clip' through the lee backstay in most cases, so we can assume that they have been loosened. But then there are the shrouds. The shrouds cannot be loosened, and obstruct the swing of the boom.

 

And the trim of the game's gaff sails is not remotely closehauled on downwind courses. They are sheeted out past what would be efficient for a beam reach. Traditional fore/aft sails are just not efficient for downwind sailing. That's why historical vessels almost always carried a few square sails.

 

 

The forces acting on all sails are of the same nature.  If every sail needs to be "implemented" separately, then none of them are actually implemented. 

I think you are very ignorant about how videogames work, and arrogant statements like this makes no one want to answer your questions or discuss improvements with you.

 

 

4.  Yes, I'd suspect that coding one more button to press is even easier than that.  

There is a button. It's called S. Since you seem to desire a totally simplistic anchoring feature, you might as well just imagine that you've let fall the anchor whenever you are stopped.

[BungeeLemming]

nothing wrong with the game.

as said above:

its not a simulation.

 

Its a game with simulational influences.

Admin said the reasons why they decided the gamemechanics as they are now

___________

 

I am in doubt of your programming experience, Sir.

If you think gamemechanics can be done in no time you are either ignorant or just not knowing.

 

 

If you are looking for a simulator you found the wrong game.

 

Never said the devs that this game is a simulator.

[bakters]

I suggest you read the main steam page properly or any materials we wrote ourselves especially part on sailing.

You will never find any phrase saying that it is a full sim. 

 

Inertia exists but it is much smaller for a cutter which you probably are sailing - it is a rookie ship and its goal is not to overwhelm the player with complexity. Most players start to experience sailing problems in a brig

 

For multiple gameplay reasons we consider all ships to be perfectly trimmed, ballast perfectly placed, masts perfectly cut, when stationary we consider that ships are at anchor (even thought it is not implemented visually for fps reasons). Drift/leeway are implemented but switched off. Some other features like "calm" - no wind - are also cut or switched off

 

The main reason: It is a realistic action game. It provides very realistic depiction of the combat and sailing concepts we (devs) believe are important. The concepts we consider not important or confusing are switched off. There are multiple things in sailing that are implemented extremely well for the game environment (e.g. frigate tacking). 

 

Based on your comments you were looking for something different and I believe games exist that cater to your desire for 100% realistic apparent wind implementation, gales, leeway or stationary drift. We had complaints before that frigate duels are not 4-5 hours as they should be, but we have no plans to cater to their requests - because its a game.

Thanks for the reply.  It makes sense.

 

Regarding my expectations, yes I admit I expected that basic forces acting on a ship would be implemented, but I also understand why they might be switched off.  

 

To some others - guys, there is no point in tearing me a new one, if the dev admits that stuff I'm complaining about is either not there for a reason, or simply switched off.  It's OK.  It's just a game.  I was simply not sure if what I have seen so far is how things are supposed to work or was I imagining stuff.

[maturin]

You're very welcome to come here and suggest improvements. The devs have toyed with the idea of enabling leeway in the past, and they listen to players who make good suggestions of how it could benefit the game.
 

If gaff rig is not implemented, then no other sails are implemented either. 

If every sail needs to be "implemented" separately, then none of them are actually implemented.

But how do you expect people to react to arrogant statements like this? Don't try to describe your post as an innocent request for information when you are couching condemnation in it at the same time.

[bakters]

You're very welcome to come here and suggest improvements. The devs have toyed with the idea of enabling leeway in the past, and they listen to players who make good suggestions of how it could benefit the game.

 

But how do you expect people to react to arrogant statements like this? Don't try to describe your post as an innocent request for information when you are couching condemnation in it at the same time.

You either simulate forces or actions.  If you simulate actions, then every sail type needs to be implemented separately, and the action needs to be tuned to work "close enough" to expected behavior for all trims and points of sail.  Lots of work, sure enough.

 

This game does not simulate forces.  Does it?

 

(BTW - airplane sims and arcade games like War Thunder manage quite well.  It's not like it can't be done...)

[admin]

You either simulate forces or actions.  If you simulate actions, then every sail type needs to be implemented separately, and the action needs to be tuned to work "close enough" to expected behavior for all trims and points of sail.  Lots of work, sure enough.

 

 

 

 

We simulate sail groups separately. Every sail group provide realistic behavior at their points of sail and position to hull (including side forces).

e.g. if your staysails are damaged by cannon fire you only lose speed at the angles where staysails interact with wind. If you have lost sails on your front mast it will not provide enough bow side force from wind when turning or tacking. 

 

 

i think the topic has run its course.

Captain in question seem to be making assumptions without having enough data. He also called it atrocious (while it is the best sailing done to date). Not a single sailing combat game simulated heel, yards, backing force before. There might be some things that need improvements. But instead of providing suggestions in a constructive way he decided to call it atrocious. Not a good start.

[maturin]

You either simulate forces or actions.  If you simulate actions, then every sail type needs to be implemented separately, and the action needs to be tuned to work "close enough" to expected behavior for all trims and points of sail.  Lots of work, sure enough.

 

This game does not simulate forces.  Does it?

 

(BTW - airplane sims and arcade games like War Thunder manage quite well.  It's not like it can't be done...)

Yes, with sailing ships you need to simulate actions, primarily.

 

Tall ships are too complex to do it any other way. Planes only have two wings, and they never change. Square riggers have thirty different wings in different locations and combinations and sizes. Planes move in one element only. Sailing ships move according to the interactions of two.

 

To my knowledge even academic researchers with supercomputers have never even attempted to create a force-based simulation of sailing ships involving even half the variables Naval Action does. On the flipside, the aerospace industry has done all this by necessity for aircraft, and their efforts have been passed down to videogame designers over a generation of constantly-maturing software and code.

 

In short, you are asking the impossible. And if leeway was switched on and the sailing model polished, you would never even notice the game taking shortcuts.

 

 

 

AFAIK Naval Action simulates certain forces, within reasonable bounds. Buoyancy, for instance, is beautifully done in stormy conditions.