Short Cut Cannons

[Fluffy Fishy]

Is there a reason we don't have short cannons in the game, were they too similar to mediums or something? I find it slightly sad that we don't have them in the game when they were included on so many historic ships that are regarded so highly with the community.

[_Masterviolin]

Is there a reason we don't have short cannons in the game, were they too similar to mediums or something? I find it slightly sad that we don't have them in the game when they were included on so many historic ships that are regarded so highly with the community.

Aren't these carronades? short cannons sound like you're talking about carronades.

Edited March 18, 2016 by _Masterviolin

[Fluffy Fishy]

Historically there are Carronades, Short Cannons, Medium Cannons and Long Cannons. Carronades are different, to compare them to modern firearms, to make it more accessible to people, it would be a bit like Carbine, Rifle and Marksman's weapons, where as a carronade is a bit like a massive sawn off shotgun.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Fluffy Fishy

[Fluffy Fishy]

Historically the vast bulk of vessels were armed with long guns, of varying length. 15 cal to 22 cal depending on bore diameter. And carronades - very short pieces which were usually used only to replace and augment the lightest quarterdeck forecastle or poop guns. There were some experiments with carronade armament in place of lighter battery pieces - replacing 9lb guns with 32lb carronades is a definite increase in shot power for the same powder charge. It is less clear whether the larger ordnance is usefully replaced by the common carronade calibres.

Both a 6ft and 9ft 6lb gun would be classified as a long gun, firing 1/3rd charges and being over 200:1 metal to shot. Ironically the closest weapon to a common "medium" piece is the 67cwt 42lb gun of 10ft. It has the lightest weight ratio of all RN long guns and is also the shortest piece in calibres.

Mediums were a late experiment of dubious value. Poor carriage design of the Congreve gun (or alternatively excellent marketing spin and careful design) gave the impression of increased power over the long guns they replaced (high preponderance and dispart caused the point blank range to be higher than the normal gun - partly by increased elevation at the line of metal, partly by excessive (and dangerous) jump when fired). With a more conservative design they did see more service in the mid C19th as part of the unified broadside (all 32lb or 30livre weapons in a suitable combination of length and weight, coupled with increased powder strength and dramatically improved windage control)). This widescale use is outside the period of NA though.

Cuts were 'insurance guns' required on merchant vessels in order to comply with insurance agent's rules. They are not regular armament on warships of this period.

 

I have some evidence that suggests over its lifetime the Victory carried an armament of short cut 42lb, short 32, medium 24, long 12, medium 12, short 12, and 18 and 68 carronades. The length of the Medium 24lb and the short 32 is the same at 9'6", would be nice to replicate this kind of armament, especially to give more choice to the higher tier ships who cannot mount carronades.

[Admiral 8Q]

Referring to a short cannon in that case likely means a miniature cannon, much less than a 4pd cannon. Probably what deck guns are referred to in this game.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Admiral 8Q

[Admiral 8Q]

A "short cut" cannon is basically a sawed-off cannon, much like a sawed-off shotgun. Which is what a carronade is, but not always called that, often called a "short cannon".

[Fluffy Fishy]

to be fair I worded the title badly and I'm not sure how to change it but really what in talking about is short and short cut both together in similar reference. what I'm really getting at is why aren't shorter main guns represented, why do we just have the carronades representing all the shorter guns. The short guns were useful for saving weight and making reload slightly easier, sadly I'm away from home so cannot provide more information but im sure there are enough people with enough information tell us the weight and length, what it boils down to is more a want to know and have an understanding of why something historical is not in the game

[Fluffy Fishy]

A "short cut" cannon is basically a sawed-off cannon, much like a sawed-off shotgun. Which is what a carronade is, but not always called that, often called a "short cannon".

carronades are different from short cannons, short and short cut cannons, a short gun can still make it to almost 10ft where as carronades don't often go beyond half that kind of length

[ObiQuiet]

I have some evidence that suggests over its lifetime the Victory carried an armament of short cut 42lb, short 32, medium 24, long 12, medium 12, short 12, and 18 and 68 carronades. 

 

Which source is that?  Thanks!

[maturin]

Mediums are basically short guns.

[Fluffy Fishy]

Medium guns are medium guns, short guns are something different

Which source is that?  Thanks!

The Haynes manual for the HMS Victory, it's quite a good open but specialist book, it doesn't cover everything in as much detail as I'd like it to but it offers some fairly hardcore information on guns pumps and all sorts, while also going into a breif of the history of the ship, I'd recommend it

[ObiQuiet]

The Haynes manual for the HMS Victory, it's quite a good open but specialist book, it doesn't cover everything in as much detail as I'd like it to but it offers some fairly hardcore information on guns pumps and all sorts, while also going into a breif of the history of the ship, I'd recommend it

 

 

Yes, I have that book too.  The author was Curator and Keeper of the Victory, so even if the content is light it should be accurate.

 

A more detailed source is this:

 

With the given caveats, it lists the following as the changes to armament that affected the Victory and other 1st rates:

 

 

The odd thing is Goodwin's text (in the Haynes manual) uses "short" in front of the 32pdrs,  this uses the phrase only with the 12pdrs.   

 

After review of the correspondence that took place after Trafalgar,  Laughton concludes that the Trafalgar armament was:

 

Gun deck 3o--32 pr guns.

Middle deck 28-24 pr guns.

Upper deck 3o--12 pr guns.

Quarter deck 12-12 pr guns.

Forecastle 2-12 pr guns and 2--68 pr carronades. 

Poop None

Total 104

 

 

Goodwin instead cites the journal of the master gunner, which is no doubt a superior source for the changes that were made during active service and wasn't available to Laughton.   There is at least the copy Goodwin used at Portsmouth -- much closer to you than to me, I dare say!

 

Laughton's article goes into a lot of detail -- even what the spare rope was made of:

L. G. Carr Laughton (1924) H.M.S. VICTORY, The Mariner's Mirror, 10:2, 173-211, DOI: 10.1080/00253359.1924.10655271

http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/00253359.1924.10655271

Edited March 20, 2016 by ObiQuiet

[Fluffy Fishy]

Thanks for that information

Anyway to steer back on topic why does the game not have them, I find it very odd there are mediums without being medium to anything