Abuse of ALTs in Basic Cutters to start combat

[mindnet56]

Many people in the English Nation are getting dragged into battles by 'friendly' Basic Cutters attacking enemy PVP player fleets that vastly outnumber the Brit players that get dragged in.

 

It is thought that the Danes and Pirates are using ALTs in British Basic Cutters to hang around areas where they can attack Danes or Pirate fleets, dragging in unsuspecting Brit players in the area into a battle where they are heavily outnumbered and CAN NOT CALL REINFORCMENTS.

 

The usual deal is that it's a Basic Cutter, Midshipman, No Clan etc.

 

This is happening very often and is becoming a pain in the back side. Rarely happens against AI fleets.

 

Enough Said.

[CptEdwardKenway]

Danes are using every possible dirty move and failure of game mechanics. I bet they discovered more exploits than any other but rarely report them.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Without any proof, this Tribunal will be dismissed in 48 hours.

 

Please provide videos, screenshots, or other concrete evidence of this occurring.

[veha]

А почему не жалуются, как британские моряки нападают превосходящими силами, а как только ситуация меняется, так сразу пытаются разбежаться и пишут в чате, что датчане ганкеры?

[Porpoise]

А почему не жалуются, как британские моряки нападают превосходящими силами, а как только ситуация меняется, так сразу пытаются разбежаться и пишут в чате, что датчане ганкеры?

 

yes, that explained everything to me 

[mouse of war]

Without any proof, this Tribunal will be dismissed in 48 hours.

 

Please provide videos, screenshots, or other concrete evidence of this occurring.

 

I understand that there are screenshots but the only proof will be chasing up IP addresses.

 

I also noticed strange events like this happening - why is it necessary for players to be dragged into battle anyway?

[SirLeggit]

you can't just come here and accuse the whole pirate and danish factions of abusing the game.

[MalakithSkadi]

I understand that there are screenshots but the only proof will be chasing up IP addresses.

 

 

The point is, so far all the Admin has to go on is "Danish" and "British Midshipman Cutters". There is not one single name for them to chase down and look into even if they wanted to.

[Unsubbed]

I don't have the screenshot but we had a low ranked player, The Black Muse, in a basic cutter who pulled pirates into a battle against a largely superior British fleet of players (IE 6 3rd rates and various 5th rates vs 1 3rd rate and a lesser number of 5th rates) in front of Mort.  This was after people were told specifically not to tag the British so that we could call reinforcements when they tagged us.  During the battle I brought this up in 'All' chat and brit players were saying things like 'It's war, its not meant to be fair.'  The Black Muse denied it, but it was highly suspect.  Also, the reference player in the basic cutter was asking what our plans were in the battle, and I am thinking this is to relay information to players from the opposing team.   I am sure if the devs/moderators were to review chat logs and history of battles this player fights, whether he is the one initiating only pvp type battles or if he is also doing pve, it would reveal if anything nefarious is taking place or if this was just a low level player who did not realize what he was doing.

 

Other players also relayed to me that they were being pulled into similar battles with this basic cutter and others.

 

Edit: Ben the Drift did submit a ticket using F11 that included a screen cap of the Tab screen during the battle which showed The Black Muse as the initiator of combat.  So there is evidence in the hands of devs.

Edited March 19, 2016 by F4ppinFr3nzy

[SirLeggit]

I don't have the screenshot but we had a low ranked player, The Black Muse, in a basic cutter who pulled pirates into a battle against a largely superior British fleet of players (IE 6 3rd rates and various 5th rates vs 1 3rd rate and a lesser number of 5th rates) in front of Mort.  This was after people were told specifically not to tag the British so that we could call reinforcements when they tagged us.  During the battle I brought this up in 'All' chat and brit players were saying things like 'It's war, its not meant to be fair.'  The Black Muse denied it, but it was highly suspect.  I am sure if the devs/moderators were to review chat logs of the said player it would reveal if anything nefarious is taking place or if this was just a low level player who did not realize what he was doing.

 

Other players also relayed to me that they were being pulled into similar battles with this basic cutter and others.

the point of the Tribunal is for you to provide evidence. Not to come and tell the devs and mods to check the chat logs.

[Unsubbed]

the point of the Tribunal is for you to provide evidence. Not to come and tell the devs and mods to check the chat logs.

One of our guys did submit a screenshot of this.  And in a game where Open Water pvp relies on each respective nation to have their fellow nationals best interests in mind when initiating combat, I'd say its worth a look into it.

[mouse of war]

The reason why people are so worried about this:

1. As a cheat it is possible - no doubt about it

2. And, given the current state of tension between factions and sometimes in these forums - there are probably very few people who think that this is not being done

3. And, this is a very important exploit - the cheat totally trashes the spirit of the game. And a lot of people like this game alot

4. Conclusive evidence is almost impossible to get - almost the perfect crime

5. As a tactic it can only spread - in fact has to spread. Any nation not doing will be forced to to compete

 

I'm less interested in the punishment of individuals than hearing of how this exploit can be stopped

[Unsubbed]

It would be a very simple fix to stop the exploit.  When an allied member initiates an attack send a popup/prompt to any friendlies within that circle asking if they wish to join combat.  If an enemy player attacks then do the same.  Literally a few lines of code and issue resolved.

 

Edit:  It would also stop us from being pulled into a battle where someone doesn't see a friendly nearby and initiates attacks without meaning to pull anyone into the fight.

Edited March 19, 2016 by F4ppinFr3nzy

[Quineloe]

Every time this happens, take a screenshot of the battle tab. If the attacker on the top left is a midshipman in a basic cutter, post the screenshot in here.

[Sir Henry de Montfort]

The accusation against pirates and danish misconduct is due to it always happening right at or before a port attack and screening fleets are conviently, dragged into battle and reinforcements are called by single players preventing them from escaping. And it only occurs during these circumstances. It is always a day or 2 old player in a cutter with no fleet and they tend to be deleted with 24hrs. Developers will not track down ip address, so this is a pointless conversation. Tribunal cannot do a thing to punish this conduct due to this exact reason. If the ip is not traced to primary player ip, then no punishment is given.

[Anolytic]

It would be a very simple fix to stop the exploit.  When an allied member initiates an attack send a popup/prompt to any friendlies within that circle asking if they wish to join combat.  If an enemy player attacks then do the same.  Literally a few lines of code and issue resolved.

 

Edit:  It would also stop us from being pulled into a battle where someone doesn't see a friendly nearby and initiates attacks without meaning to pull anyone into the fight.

Completely nullifying intercepting PB fleets in OW.

[Unsubbed]

Completely nullifying intercepting PB fleets in OW.

How would it change it? The goal is to tag the flag carrier... This could still be accomplished but the attackers could intercept the defenders without pulling their whole team into battle.  If a lone attacker does pull the flag carrier into battle you could kill him/them while the carrier escapes and he waits on the combat results screen for them to finish.  Afterward, he will have invulnerability and if they are smart will send a few out of battle beforehand to clear the way...

 

Edit: I'm definitely not claiming this would not affect other game mechanics.  However, the way things are now need to be dealt with.  The anonymity associated with this type of action previously mentioned by mouse of war make it near impossible to prove or punish culprits because they can claim that they are too new to know better.

Edited March 19, 2016 by F4ppinFr3nzy

[Anolytic]

as suggested, devs please introduce a UI window that asks 'do you wish to join this battle? - yes/no'

Let us perhaps not discuss mechanics changes and suggestions in the tribunal. This is not the place for that. I still want to say though, that the proposed change would be a terrible idea. It would take all tactics and skill out of screening and intercepting actions and make numbers the only thing that matters. It would be truly game breaking for smaller nations and clans. Edited March 19, 2016 by Anolytic

[chappy]

Let us perhaps not discuss mechanics changes and suggestions in the tribunal. This is not the place for that. I still want to say though, that the proposed change would be a terrible idea. It would take all tactics and skill out of screening and intercepting actions and make numbers the only thing that matters. It would be truly game breaking for smaller nations and clans.

In the absence of any other evidence of specific players or clans abusing a mechanic this is about all that this thread is good for. 

well that and making generalisations and sweeping accusations against entire nations... 

[Unsubbed]

Let us perhaps not discuss mechanics changes and suggestions in the tribunal. This is not the place for that. I still want to say though, that the proposed change would be a terrible idea. It would take all tactics and skill out of screening and intercepting actions and make numbers the only thing that matters. It would be truly game breaking for smaller nations and clans.

Please explain to the difference between how the system in place currently helps smaller nations and clans?  If you are going to say something is a terrible idea at least give a specific example that would take place that is different from the current one.

[admin]

and even when we do provide screens....and testimony...admin does a cursory investigation and then disregards...

Ie "Khorne74 is definately a Brit player"...even tho he sailed through a Danish fleet that he tagged without taking any damage till they decided to farm some from him and let him go...

 

Did you?

Your screen was with 5 danes and one pavel. And nothing else. Khorne74 and TAB screen was provided by the danes.

 

Now. we investigated the guy who attacked

the guy with several british outposts full of goods and ships is definitely not an alt (+MC rank)

We have contacted the tribunal creator but he has not yet provided anything specific on Khorne74 or on that particular situation

Instead he just said something strange - it must be fixed yada yada everything is on the screenshot (where we all saw 4 danes and one british pavel) 

Still not providing anything factual (just like you here in your statement). 

 

If he sailed through the danish fleet on video it would be easy. Words are too easy to manufacture and edit.

 

We are taking an unbiased position here

What if he attacked by mistake?

What if someone asked him to attack to set up danes for tribunal?

Because if he was an alt. Why did he level up and built outposts in british port, made ships, bought resources, broke up ships? All for one in game criminal act? Too time consuming

[admin]

Admin

 

Admin...with respect....

a bunch of Brits were looking at him..I'm sorry we dont have screenshots and I'm sorry you dont seem to understand your own tagging mechanics and how a spy wanting to break PB's kinda needs to be in BelleP+ so they can tag certain ships....

We are completely aware that it would have been fantastic to get better documentation...We wish we had better documentation...the only real documentation that can be provided from our side tho is some screenshots of the map where everyone else is damaged while Khorne sails past...

also....Yah our guys had a chuckle at Welten's screenshot and "It must be fixed" as well.....

 

If we ban on words half of forum would be banned

No evidence = no action

 

We suggest everyone to calm down and proceed (or create) to ROE topic and provide ideas on how to fix the problem by design.

[admin]

The reason why people are so worried about this:

1. As a cheat it is possible - no doubt about it

2. And, given the current state of tension between factions and sometimes in these forums - there are probably very few people who think that this is not being done

3. And, this is a very important exploit - the cheat totally trashes the spirit of the game. And a lot of people like this game alot

4. Conclusive evidence is almost impossible to get - almost the perfect crime

5. As a tactic it can only spread - in fact has to spread. Any nation not doing will be forced to to compete

 

I'm less interested in the punishment of individuals than hearing of how this exploit can be stopped

 

So as a forum/game veteran why dont you create a ROE update topic and provide ideas. In a structured way just like here.

[Jim]

 

 

I guess that this was one of such doubtful incidents. I'm last person who would ban anyone but such incidents are a problem.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Jim

[Anolytic]

Please explain to the difference between how the system in place currently helps smaller nations and clans? If you are going to say something is a terrible idea at least give a specific example that would take place that is different from the current one.

I would be happy to do so, in a more appropriately placed topic. However since you insist I will provide my most obvious objection. With the proposed mechanics change you can only drag the single targeted player into combat. So in a PB fleet any interceptors would be defensively tagged before they got within range of the conquest flag. And even if they closed the range, the flagcarrier would just refuse to join combat and any interceptors could only conceivably intercept the number of ships they had the numbers to 1v1. In general people would also never allow themselves to be dragged into a fight, they would rather wait till the battle started to see if they wanted to reinforce. Nobody would ever have any idea how many ships would be joining on either side when the battle started, and teammates would often be left alone in unwinnable fights expecting reinforcements and getting none. There would be a lot less fleet battles on this server and only 1v1's.

Please create a topic in an appropriate forum to hear the rest of my objections.