Yogscast just posted a Naval Action Video - New People Coming? UPDATE - (2nd Video on Feb 24th)

[maturin]

Oh right, the old "It's not broken because it doesn't matter" argument.

 

Then why even have it?

 

Just get rid of the magic ships if it doesn't matter anyways. 

Because ships are different...

 

/facepalm

 

 

 

And there's no magic.

 

Earlier on, weren't you whining about ships being too expendable, and wanting to keep your own perfect customized ship forever and ever? And now you want them to be identical? I'm confused.

[jodgi]

Not like a non-yellow ship would lock you out of competitive combat. Your maneouvering skill, gunnery and sail handling gives a MUCH bigger advantage than any fancy upgrade that lets you have 5% more armor.

You're right about the ships.

The upgrades make such a difference that if skill is equal, upgrades often decide an isolated duel. Speed, sights and especially boarding mods. Just look at how golden boarding stuff simply burns through any attempt at clever clicking.

We measure ship cost in batches of five, gotta click until you get that 3/5 ship with the right RNG built-ins.

I've never heard of a competitive player that sticks with vanilla stuff in any game. If it's grind to win competitive players leave and play a game where skill matters. We are dangerously close to a system where people with time enough can bot grind and craft their way to easy-win equipment.

I want to enable casuals and skill.

[maturin]

Crafting note drops for even-BR victories?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The upgrades make such a difference that if skill is equal, upgrades often decide an isolated duel. Speed, sights and especially boarding mods. Just look at how golden boarding stuff simply burns through any attempt at clever clicking.

Hang on a minute, Jodgi, you are clouding the issue.

 

I won't argue with speed, but sights and the best boarding mods are temporary modules. Those are practically immortal. If you can't be bothered scraping together a few crafting notes for a mod that will last a lifetime, the game design isn't to blame.

[kumisz]

Having a non-yellow ship is not vanilla stuff. You can do just about the same in a fine (blue) quality ship upgrade-wise, maybe you don't put on the boarding upgrade, and you avoid boarding. That 3 upgrade slots is enough to have a good ship with the necessary upgrades, and it is not as pricy to replace as a yellow one if lost. You don't need the best stuff available to be somewhat competitive, and aiming to be perfectly competitive in this game is simply pointless, it is not an eSport, its not designed that way.

 

I've never heard of a competitive player that sticks with vanilla stuff in any game.

[Aetrion]

I won't argue with speed, but sights and the best boarding mods are temporary modules. Those are practically immortal. If you can't be bothered scraping together a few crafting notes for a mod that will last a lifetime, the game design isn't to blame.

 

Pretty irrelevant if the mods are "immortal" if the slots to put them in are not.

[maturin]

Pretty irrelevant if the mods are "immortal" if the slots to put them in are not.

Spoken like someone who talks authoritatively about loss, but doesn't actually play the game and lose ships.

 

 

People remove the mods when they are down to 1 dura, and use the ship as a throwaway in a desperate PB defense or risky OW PvP.

[Aetrion]

You know how dumb you look when you talk trash about people while obviously not even understanding what they said?

 

My whole point was that since the number of mod slots on a ship depends on its quality you are still stuck having to buy top quality ships over and over to actually re-mount the mods. 

[kumisz]

You know how dumb you look when you talk trash about people while obviously not even understanding what they said?

 

My whole point was that since the number of mod slots on a ship depends on its quality you are still stuck having to buy top quality ships over and over to actually re-mount the mods. 

 

 

Having a non-yellow ship is not vanilla stuff. You can do just about the same in a fine (blue) quality ship upgrade-wise, maybe you don't put on the boarding upgrade, and you avoid boarding. That 3 upgrade slots is enough to have a good ship with the necessary upgrades, and it is not as pricy to replace as a yellow one if lost. You don't need the best stuff available to be somewhat competitive, and aiming to be perfectly competitive in this game is simply pointless, it is not an eSport, its not designed that way.

 

You are not stuck with anything. You need to choose the mods you really need, and not throw everything on the ship mindlessly, then you can have a cheaper ship.

[Aetrion]

Right, right, high quality ships are just for idiots who throw mods on them mindlessly. 

[kumisz]

Right, right, high quality ships are just for idiots who throw mods on them mindlessly. 

...exactly.

[maturin]

My whole point was that since the number of mod slots on a ship depends on its quality you are still stuck having to buy top quality ships over and over to actually re-mount the mods. 

You don't need an Exceptional ship to mount temporary mods!

 

Even Basic ships can usually hold one or two, providing the considerable advantage of a Marines and Muskets/Pistols.

 

The more you try to argue, the more it becomes clear that you think every player should easily and permanently have access to the very best gear in the game. Nothing else is good enough.

 

I should really be able to spend 40 minutes buying some gold, and then spend the rest of my life rolling around in a pile of Exceptional mods and ships, all of which are immortal?

[jodgi]

maturin and kumisz...

You're free to do what you want, run around with whatever gimp fit you like. Though, I recognize that it does not matter with bot hunting and mission grinding. Any ship is adequate vs. bots.

I'm just saying that I only care about golden ships, preferably those with 3/5 slots.

Ask around in the big clans. Ask what ships they keep and use. It's not only bone-headed jodgi and his min-maxing tunnel vision. Golden 3/5 is a thing and not because I say so.

[Tindahbawx]

My whole point was that since the number of mod slots on a ship depends on its quality you are still stuck having to buy top quality ships over and over to actually re-mount the mods. 

 

Whats wrong with that? Ships sink, and you need to get another. Be more careful with it next time.

 

You can already lose the damn things 5 times over before you feel any real loss and its actually pretty easy to disengage from a fight and keep your ships durability, as long as you know when and how to.

[Aetrion]

Whats wrong with that? 

 

Combat is the most enjoyable thing about this game, even fights where skill matters are more enjoyable than stacked fights where it doesn't, and this whole ship sinking and being careful thing are stopping both of those from happening at an enjoyable frequency. 

[kumisz]

maturin and kumisz...

You're free to do what you want, run around with whatever gimp fit you like. Though, I recognize that it does not matter with bot hunting and mission grinding. Any ship is adequate vs. bots.

I'm just saying that I only care about golden ships, preferably those with 3/5 slots.

Ask around in the big clans. Ask what ships they keep and use. It's not only bone-headed jodgi and his min-maxing tunnel vision. Golden 3/5 is a thing and not because I say so.

 

Let's see:

 

- we are free to do whatever we want (including bot fights and pvp or even, curses, trade and crafting)

- but the game should be as you personally would prefer it, and not as it is now, as most people prefer it.

 

I think something went wrong in your argument.

[Aetrion]

The thing is it isn't as most people prefer it, you're just confusing being in the majority with being so exclusive that only the minority remains.

[jodgi]

...this whole ship sinking and being careful thing are stopping both of those from happening at an enjoyable frequency.

^^So much

We're not out to ruin the sandbox or the economy. Surely we can have a discussion about how to improve the game, all factors included without throwing ourselves in the trenches because some factors are impossible to change?

[jodgi]

- but the game should be as you personally would prefer it, and not as it is now, as most people prefer it.

There was no argument in the text you quoted, just an observation. Besides the devs have said long time ago they are looking at the quality system because they've seen what I described.

[kumisz]

There was no argument in the text you quoted, just an observation. Besides the devs have said long time ago they are looking at the quality system because they've seen what I described.

 

Make no mistake, I am not arguing about the quality system, I argue about Aetrion's old suggestion to remove durability all in all, and make ships immortal, so that once you buy them, you cannot lose them.

 

THAT is what would make the in game economy stop, and render the whole economy system - as flawed as it is now, but working - useless.

[Aetrion]

Yeaaa, this whole premise that you can't have an economy without having to replace ships after 5 of fewer deaths is just total BS, sorry. There are way too many games that have a thriving economy without any such shenanigans that it just doesn't hold up. 

 

I mean have a look at the guild war system in Black Desert. That's a hell of a lot more fun than any of what we get here. and that's a VERY crafting heavy game. It just puts the majority of crafting cost on building keeps that guilds use to lock down resource nodes and collect taxes from them, rather than on squeezing the fun out of the general population.

[kumisz]

Yeaaa, this whole premise that you can't have an economy without having to replace ships after 5 of fewer deaths is just total BS, sorry. There are way too many games that have a thriving economy without any such shenanigans that it just doesn't hold up. 

 

I mean have a look at the guild war system in Black Desert. That's a hell of a lot more fun than any of what we get here. and that's a VERY crafting heavy game. It just puts the majority of crafting cost on building keeps that guilds use to lock down resource nodes and collect taxes from them, rather than on squeezing the fun out of the general population.

 

Yeaaa, continue ignoring the fact that without consuming the product, the economy will not work. We had a 24 page long "discussion" about that earlier, and I do not wish to repeat that.

[jodgi]

I'm absolutely certain that suffering or "faulty" PVP mechanics are far more damaging to this game in the long term than suffering or faulty (make believe) economy.

That should shed some light on why some of us are willing to entertain any idea to enable normal players for PVP.

[Lord Vicious]

Tbh they are soo bad, they dont even bother to look at the hotkeys or some "instructional" guide or video on youtube.  On 2nd video they still not get how to set up the range for aim... really? REALLY? 

Edited March 5, 2016 by maturin

[Aetrion]

Yeaaa, continue ignoring the fact that without consuming the product, the economy will not work. We had a 24 page long "discussion" about that earlier, and I do not wish to repeat that.

 

You continuously ignore the fact that ships are not the one and only thing an economy can be based on. You have a direct quote of me explaining how another game does an economy with high consumption rates that support guild wars without stomping out everyone else directly above you saying I'm ignoring that economies need consumption.

 

Are you just willfully ignoring what I'm saying so you can pull out the same moldy old strawman over and over? I mean your posts more and more just sound like trolling to me, when you accuse me of being ignorant of something directly beneath a quote where I give an example of how that very thing can be done in a different, better way.

[maturin]

I'm just saying that I only care about golden ships, preferably those with 3/5 slots.

Ask around in the big clans. Ask what ships they keep and use. It's not only bone-headed jodgi and his min-maxing tunnel vision. Golden 3/5 is a thing and not because I say so.

I know that yellow ships are taking over. But if the abstract, invisible phenomenon of other people using yellow ships while you have a purple one destroys your ability to enjoy the game, that is really not the game's fault.

 

And this nebulous idea of 'doing something about loss' would require the quality system to scrapped entirely, or else even the Chinese gold farmers would go 3/5.