[PvP2] Vive La France

[Æthlstan]

I too like the struggle against overwhelming odds, and this experiment in game nechanics to find out how effective a nation with few ports can be. What we are doing to the pirates is seriously hampering their ability to prepare for the US assault. This will not be a vacation spot for them. This wont be a place for R&R. We will be a resource-sapping burden until the Americans chase you down here and eliminate you.

Even if you pirates decided to give back an area for our use, with the intent of allowing us to prepare to fight the US alongside us...Im not sure how many french would be keen to take that deal. At least at the moment, when a port wipe is going to happen anyways.

But the fact remains...you cant expect us to consider anything less as acceptable. As well as allowing us to breathe, we would have to figure out how to get north and fight the americans. You guys f'd things up nicely by refusing to seriously oppose the American sweep southward.

I dont think an alliance is likely either way, given the many reasons listed by the others.

[[MCC] Die Antwoord]

Again, anything that does not provide France long term viability or forces the nation to just go PvE quietly will be a non-starter.  Agreeing to a ceasefire without any structure for longer term cooperation doesn't accomplish anything.  Admittedly the end state agreement doesn't need to be in place before a cease-fire becomes a reasonable avenue but there should be at least a general framework that ongoing discussions can be held around.

 

You will also need to figure out how you will get the various factions to toe the line.  I can't imagine that the BSO and other clans you have in the south will be willing to give any quarter whatsoever given how much of a thorn we continue to be in their sides.

 

The bottom line is that what is going on right now does not give France any viability short, medium or long term. Like I always said, diplomacy is a process, not something that can be done overnight. I'm clearly hearing that you guys enjoy the PVP just as much as we do and having an agreement doesn't exclude this. Take the Swedes for example, we've had a loose understanding them them and drew a line in the sand at Plymouth. We don't take their ports, they don't take ours, but it's FFA PVP. Neither faction camps missions (systematically at the very least, I did hear reports of occasional jumping) and overall, we're all enjoying sweet pvp without affecting each other's trade, crafting or leveling capabilities so everyone gets their fair share of the pie.

 

You got to start somewhere. If you guys want to exist, start by talking to us.. then lets talk cease-fire... then lets talk line in the sand about ports and mission camping, giving you guys room to trade/level/craft... Later, when all the tension has dropped several notches, then perhaps further deals could be made.

 

St-Pierre, La Trinite and whatever else port we took recently up North.. we don't need. We're not straight out going to give them back on a whim based on how you never managed to hold your end of the bargain... but if you show that you can be good neighbors, I don't see why we would oppose giving some stuff back.

 

Again, some clans will probably not mesh with all this so well... but CF's goal in the region was to secure a small haven for our clan to operate at. Everybody joined the bandwagon so we now have the brawn for much bigger ambitions, but the mission as far as CF is concerned is accomplished and totally overdone when we start talking about any french port south of Rosaly/Roseau (that whole island was Neutral BTW, so we didn't steal it from you guys, you just failed to claim it faster than a pair of small pirate clans could). St-Joseph though I must admit we had eyes on it since the beginning as oak/iron/hemp is scarce in our own ports.

 

The only french port we took down south, as far as I know, is the neutral port we clearly said we were going to take and that you ninja'd fully knowing we wanted it while we were attacking Puerto de Espana. You should have been attacking a Brit port, not that one port we said we wanted.

[Heibges]

I fought in my first port battle last on the French side, and I had an awesome time.

[Æthlstan]

maybe all caps will get through.

THERE. WAS. NO. DEAL. THERE. WAS. NO. BARGAIN.

Pirates offered and the french laughed. It was a good joke but not a serious offer.

[[MCC] Die Antwoord]

For the record Slamz, you keep saying all we do is mainly PVE, hoard cash and other pointless things that will have zero value when a wipe hits. How do you think we managed to have so many high levels on our side? It is simply because we work on leveling. You guys are still about all the same level as you were 2 weeks ago when the pounding started, while most of us are now Raiders, Ravagers, Demon and we even have some Devils (that's a totally pointless level right now, since Demon can already fully crew the biggest ship).

 

When the wipe happens. the Pirates will have the most high level players. I wouldn't call that achieving nothing. We all get more than our share of PVP, between the Brits and US up north, to all you small nations who PVP us for fun, for challenge or out of sheer suicidal tendencies...

 

Being rich is just a consequence of doing lots of missions and killing constitution fleets, etc. It's not a goal.... More XP and gold out of missions/fleets than PVP, so we're not wasting time.

maybe all caps will get through.

THERE. WAS. NO. DEAL. THERE. WAS. NO. BARGAIN.

Pirates offered and the french laughed. It was a good joke but not a serious offer.

 

Lets call it a loose understanding. That was BEFORE the famous meeting where all went south BTW... I know the meeting went nowhere fast.

[Arsilon]

Lets call it an ultimatum. That was BEFORE the famous meeting where all went south BTW... I know the meeting went nowhere fast.

 

Fixed.

[Slamz]

I joined pirates for the low sec/null sec non-stop risk and Pvp opportunities, thats not what we have here right now. 

 

Yeah I'm pretty curious what, if anything, the devs have in mind for pirates or if situations like PVP2 is giving them any ideas. I feel like the situation right now is:

• U.S., through sheer brute force of player count, had a lot of people and got a lot of ranks and ships and blueprints really fast.
• Seeing this, Pirates decided to retreat and level up because you can't defend your deep water ports against fleets of 3rd rates using your Cerberuses.
• Brits recently attacked the pirates only to come to the exact same conclusion, as the pirates have outleveled them in the same way the U.S. outleveled the pirates.

The whole game is turning into a "race to the 1st rates with lots of PvE grinding" which is really not what Pirates, at least, should have been about.

 

Whatever the pirate players hoped to become, they have turned into nationals, with national strategy and national goals and national thinking: "retreat and grind up some more levels in PvE".

 

The "pirate vs pirate" aspect is non-existent except for the ability to hide each other on the open sea. Pirates ended up being a national faction with a built in advantage.

 

The bottom line is that what is going on right now does not give France any viability short, medium or long term.

...

The only french port we took down south, as far as I know, is the neutral port we clearly said we were going to take and that you ninja'd fully knowing we wanted it while we were attacking Puerto de Espana. You should have been attacking a Brit port, not that one port we said we wanted.

 

Long term the map is going to reset. The fact that pirates are thinking "long term" suggests they have not grasped the reality of being in an Early Access alpha.

 

 

The port you are saying we "ninjad" was also our only local source of iron. Once you discovered Peurto de Espania had tons of iron, it served no use for you.

 

You're just locked into POTBS mentality. Poke-ports. Gotta catch em all! You have literally no use at all for the majority of ports you own now and you will never visit them. I would bet you have no use for the very ports you started this war with. You could have come to us before ever attacking the first port and said "We really need help with the U.S. zerg but we're short on iron. Can we just get one good iron port around you?" You'd have found us to be a lot more affable. Pirate ego is the problem.

 

Too late now. Enjoy your team full of PvE XP grinders. If it's not what you wanted, it's what your strategy created.

[Bach]

I like the flexibility of this game. I think we have designed a "behind enemy lines" logistics system that would last indefinetly even without ports. That said, it's not the only aspect of the game I would like to try out or the only place in it I would like to play. I think we've learned leaps and bounds in the SE. But how long can you really go just dining NPC hunting pirates. Not hat it isn't fun and kudos to FC, SIN and OSB for providing the opposition. I'd like to kick it up a notch and try out a more war oriented front. Not that the SE isn't a war. The OS pvp has been epic at times. But the conquest aspects are rather one sided so there isn't much to learn beyond how to arrange uncontested pbs. The last battle of Padernas we rearranged our tactics from what learned in the first one and ended up totally routing the attackers. I would love to see how some of this stuff works vs. a variety of opponents. I would also like to see what we can do with larger ships.

So my comments on this whole thing:

I'm having a great time and this may be my all time favorite pvp game.

I have no problem continuing the guerrilla warfare campaign and I agree we'll probably be great at. I'm not sure we'll be doing the newbie French any great service in the process though as we all go at it hard core.

I would like to experience some of the other aspects, tactics and strategies of the game as that was the purpose of the alpha. All the port Zerging and such has me a bit mistified as this is an alpha. Not much point in winning the alpha by taking all the ports you can.

I'm not sure that we don't have a responsibility of sorts to other players not to make starting areas unplayable for them. I'm not sure what that responsibility may or may not be but something about what we're collectively doing seems like it might not be right.

[Slamz]

I'm not sure that we don't have a responsibility of sorts to other players not to make starting areas unplayable for them. I'm not sure what that responsibility may or may not be but something about what we're collectively doing seems like it might not be right.

 

That's something I see as worth figuring out now, in the alpha. The current level of trolling by the pirates should not be unexpected and I'm sure it will happen repeatedly in the future. The U.S. could eventually do it to the pirates themselves. I think the devs already had to do some kind of artificial intervention with the Spanish but longer term there needs to be some thinking about these issues.

 

Like:

Should port battles get NPC defenders to fill slots if no players show up?

Should there be a limit to how many port defenses a small team can have to face at the same time (or even within a week)?

Should port battle cost vary based on team size? (And if so, "team size" meaning number of ports, number of people online now or some other figure?)

(Or maybe flags cost 1,000,000 more for each flag out. If you want to run 4 simultaneous attacks, you can, but the 4th flag costs 3,000,000 more than normal?)

 

 

And it could be that things are actually pretty fine the way they are, but the methods for recovery are not well documented.

 

And it's probable that true Alliances would totally fix this. If the British and Dutch could join port battles with us, I think we'd be having a very different discussion.

 

I guess the options for a team facing a zerg are:

1) Retreat, trying to gobble up ports to your rear faster than your enemy can gobble up ports to your front.

2) Retreat to a prepared space where you have other ports, far away from where the enemy is killing you.

3) Hold out / guerrilla war.

 

 

Pirates tried #1. Honestly hard to say how that's working out for them overall. I wonder if their team is actually in a better position now or feels stronger for it? On one hand they have gotten out of reach of the U.S. On the other hand, now they have guerillas in their midst, wasted a ton of cash on port attacks for ports they don't really have a use for, alienated their own team and abandoned their own newbies (which, for a team that's already a zerg may be seen as a benefit).

 

France could try #2 at any time. It's out there waiting for us. Many of the same problems as what the pirates did, minus the automatic enemies and guerrillas.

 

I'm personally interested in seeing how far #3 can go. Pretend the gulf coast isn't there and see if it's viable to play the hold out / guerrilla war game.

 

 

 

It would be nice to "think of the newbies", though. A new player showing up in Fort Royal or Mortimer Town is probably going to be pretty lost and confused. (Moreso than they already would have been.) Lots of potential for "newbie zone griefing" in this game.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Slamz

[[MCC] Die Antwoord]

I said this on the steam forums, I wouldn't be opposed to increasing significantly the protection area around the capital.. Enough so that at least 5-6 towns around it are immune to capping and have fleets autospawn from cities when anyone enters that area. This would allow level 1-3 players to do quests within that area but at later levels, they would have to venture out.

This would solve the capital camping issue for everyone.

I also would not be oppposed to a more flexible teleport system. What if teleport to capital was replaces by teleport to any Free Town on top of outposts? Maybe also fresh players could chose whichever port as their first outpost (defaulting to capital).

[Taralin Snow]

There are no "leveling clans" or anything like that, each clan is operating it's own thing and there is no member sharing or even migration as far as I know...

 

Apparently [bSO] really is a 'beginners' clan.  Since they had higher level players than we do I thought they weren't, but apparently they are.  So now we know.

 

Confirmation here: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/9846-pvp2-us-political-situation-info-needed/page-11#entry195687

[Obliterati]

I'm curious why you think you're having an affect on the pirates Slamz? I haven't seen a french in something larger than a pickle in since Friday night.

I'm sure you might be having a greater effect in the bay to the southeast. Though those pirates were always behind the camp du roy pirates. When it comes to experience.

 

Even if a map reset is coming it wont be happening anytime real soon. The development cycle is to long on these things and the game has barely been out a month. Sure it'll be reset eventually but not anytime soon. In the mean time we can't play like it'll happen tomorrow so who cares. We have to live our lives like we have a future. That's the same principle you should take with crafting. We all know it'll be reset but if we stop building... none of us get ships in the meantime.

[[MCC] Die Antwoord]

I'm eager to see what the devs will do of all the events on pvp2us. I don't know how it is on other servers but I think we have a pretty messed up map. The French, Pirates and Spanish are all pretty much disabled in thier capital area but all have another spot they can retreat too, a long and dangerous sail to "safer" lands.

I heard the devs intervened on another server? I don't have the details of that and it could just be rumors. One thing is sure, its an interesting problem both for players of these nations and the devs.

[Arsilon]

You think all the rage and drama over the past week counts as no affect?  

 

Sure we may not be creating a complete transformation of the geo/political situation but to say we've had no impact probably isn't true.  Clearly we are making the pirates shift their priorities and tactics in some way, no?

 

Given our population imbalance for such a small group to be having any impact at all is interesting and hopefully the devs are learning about what tweaks might be necessary.

[Obliterati]

I said this on the steam forums, I wouldn't be opposed to increasing significantly the protection area around the capital.. Enough so that at least 5-6 towns around it are immune to capping and have fleets autospawn from cities when anyone enters that area. This would allow level 1-3 players to do quests within that area but at later levels, they would have to venture out.

This would solve the capital camping issue for everyone.

I also would not be oppposed to a more flexible teleport system. What if teleport to capital was replaces by teleport to any Free Town on top of outposts? Maybe also fresh players could chose whichever port as their first outpost (defaulting to capital).

 

If you want this go to PVE servers. Almost everyone i know ignore 7th rate ships because it takes to damn long to hunt them down for practically no reward.

 

Also the teleport system is currently being abused badly. adding to this abuse is a terrible idea. Additionally, if you want pirates to really be pirates in the future instead of a nation state. Teleporting should be removed entirely. As it stands today. You just send items via the mail or teleport your trade ships around. Teleporting itself was a concession to the casuals. It should be removed to maintain a healthy ecosystem. 

[Obliterati]

You think all the rage and drama over the past week counts as no affect?  

 

Sure we may not be creating a complete transformation of the geo/political situation but to say we've had no impact probably isn't true.  Clearly we are making the pirates shift their priorities and tactics in some way, no?

 

Given our population imbalance for such a small group to be having any impact at all is interesting and hopefully the devs are learning about what tweaks might be necessary.

 

I think you forget why people go pirate... we thrive on this crap. I can't think of a single person who joined pirates because they hated trolling, pvp or political drama. All we needed was an excuse. Slamz & the French gave us that. If you wanted to 1 up the pirates. The best thing you could of done is kept your mouth shut. We'd of gotten bored and moved on long before now.

seriously listening to our TS during these past few weeks has been like listening to a pack of hyenas going in for the kill.

[Francis Tabernac]

seriously listening to our TS during these past few weeks has been like listening to a pack of hyenas going in for the kill.

 

You mean it's full of those weird, high-pitched giggles?

I've got no dog in this fight, I just enjoyed the image o7

[Dharus]

I'm curious why you think you're having an affect on the pirates Slamz? I haven't seen a french in something larger than a pickle in since Friday night.

I'm sure you might be having a greater effect in the bay to the southeast. Though those pirates were always behind the camp du roy pirates. When it comes to experience.

Even if a map reset is coming it wont be happening anytime real soon. The development cycle is to long on these things and the game has barely been out a month. Sure it'll be reset eventually but not anytime soon. In the mean time we can't play like it'll happen tomorrow so who cares. We have to live our lives like we have a future. That's the same principle you should take with crafting. We all know it'll be reset but if we stop building... none of us get ships in the meantime.

Some pickles are larger than others.

But seriously, you guys are 10x France. If you want a pitched battle with 3rd rates with France, you'll be waiting a long, long time. Slamz told you guys that from the beginning. You've carved out a nice little hidey hole to build up your forces but you've killed your PvP opportunities. Meanwhile we pick and choose battles we have a chance at winning. That isn't attacking deepwater ports up north or fighting 50+ who all out rank and ship our 12. Heck, you guys even scared the british away (good job btw). If you come patrolling south, you'll probably be bored because we'll just wait until your gone to come back. Pirate warfare.

[Arsilon]

I think you forget why people go pirate... we thrive on this crap. I can't think of a single person who joined pirates because they hated trolling, pvp or political drama. All we needed was an excuse. Slamz & the French gave us that. If you wanted to 1 up the pirates. The best thing you could of done is kept your mouth shut. We'd of gotten bored and moved on long before now.

seriously listening to our TS during these past few weeks has been like listening to a pack of hyenas going in for the kill.

 

Which means there has been some affect.  So good for all of us we have something to fight over.

[Obliterati]

That is where Slamz got it wrong. All the pvp one could want is just a teleport away. 3h later you can return. No muss no fuss. In fact a substantial number of our guys do that almost daily to various freeports. If they removed the teleport like they should then Slamz would have been correct.

 

As it stands your dead wrong.

[[MCC] Die Antwoord]

Some pickles are larger than others.

But seriously, you guys are 10x France. If you want a pitched battle with 3rd rates with France, you'll be waiting a long, long time. Slamz told you guys that from the beginning. You've carved out a nice little hidey hole to build up your forces but you've killed your PvP opportunities. Meanwhile we pick and choose battles we have a chance at winning. That isn't attacking deepwater ports up north or fighting 50+ who all out rank and ship our 12. Heck, you guys even scared the british away (good job btw). If you come patrolling south, you'll probably be bored because we'll just wait until your gone to come back. Pirate warfare.

We haven't killed any pvp opportunity, heck we are doing so good that the biggest clan on the server actually spent a whole week plotting to come end us. Newsflash, the only thing you guys are succeeding in doing is delaying us playing with the big boys. I personnaly dislike this French war not because we are having a hard time with you guys but just because it distracts us from doing something actually useful.

But hey its just a game right? One thing is sure, it looks like the Brits are busy with the US now. I've been wanting to see this for a long time. Things are about to get real.

[Bach]

I think you forget why people go pirate... we thrive on this crap. I can't think of a single person who joined pirates because they hated trolling, pvp or political drama. All we needed was an excuse. Slamz & the French gave us that. If you wanted to 1 up the pirates. The best thing you could of done is kept your mouth shut. We'd of gotten bored and moved on long before now.

seriously listening to our TS during these past few weeks has been like listening to a pack of hyenas going in for the kill.

The only French in the North are newer players. Which explains the Pickles. It is the newbie French zone by design. You just happened to take it for some reason. It should provide a good test for the Alpha to see what it does. If new French accounts wain or players join France for a day or two and then reroll it will mean the Devs need to look into the mechanics of those ports.

You may thrive on this crap but probably no more than we do. We take about 20 ships a day. Most of them are NPC hunter pirates. But we also have our share of long battles with squadrons. It's been loads of fun all around and when the masts if a pirate constitution go down, as happened twice yesterday, I have to pull the head phones off from the wolf pack cheers on our end.

Truth be told you should consider switching flags with us. We're far better pirates than you are. While your a far better Nation than we are.

[Dharus]

That is where Slamz got it wrong. All the pvp one could want is just a teleport away. 3h later you can return. No muss no fuss. In fact a substantial number of our guys do that almost daily to various freeports. If they removed the teleport like they should then Slamz would have been correct.

As it stands your dead wrong.

The issue isnt its right or wrong, just a different tactic. You guys ran from your capital to build up in safety then teleport ships for pvp. The whole "PvE to level to max to PvP" thing. Thats not "wrong" but don't except France to give you PvP which goes back to your Pickle comment. We are just picking our fights where we can. Edited February 23, 2016 by Dharus

[Obliterati]

Hey I'm perfectly fine with no pvp in my pve hunting grounds. Safety allows for more risk. Which yields greater rewards.

4k till Demon and my 3rd rate!

[Dharus]

And we enjoyed capping a Connie last night and sinking some of the FC crew (good fighting boys). I haven't PvEd in weeks and love it.

To each there own.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Dharus