Other uses of the game engine

[Sailor Malan]

I don't have the game, and have only just started dipping in to this forum, but it looks to be the game engine of my dreams - but for the wrong game!

 

Don't get me wrong, I have played Eve (and going way back, Elite etc)  and I might well be interested in a 'Eve in 18th century' for some light relief. I appreciate that combat needs to be adapted for that environment/player. However it looks like this engine will have all the potential to be a realistic wargame of the period as well... With realistic physics for sailing mechanics, and gunnery/damage, all the elements will be there, and (assuming the implementation is flexible) just changing some data - reload speeds and effects of mast damage with high levels of sail (maybe raw sailing speeds as well) you have a classic wargame  - Age of Sail finally done right. A realistic, stable multiplayer 1st of June or Trafalgar would have a market - and single ship actions or smaller battles would be amazing.

 

I appreciate it wont be mass market like a MMO, but a parallel development in such an area would be the stuff of hard core wargamer dreams as I said. Is there any hope/plans?

 

You could also have a harder core naval action for the MMO - slower sailing  and more realistic combat on one server of the basic game - you might expand your market. It always strikes me as odd to have a very  realistic engine set up for a semi arcade experience only. I would love there to be both!

 

Oh, and I suspect the game is going to hit a problem as is.... bigger ship = better on all fronts is not a stable game because everyone goes for the bigger ships then all battles end up the same... you need to have to make compromises. Bigger ships could be taken down by more maneuverable smaller ships if badly handled in RL, and there needs to be a strong element of this. They also sailed worse and could be lost in storms to hitting land to leeward when a smaller ship can make way upwind...You have the start of it with shallow water etc but this just seems to be a nursery for beginners. You need much much more of this for the MMO element to have longevity. If after a while, 50% of the ships inn the game are first rates, any illusion of realism and much of the game experience will be lost... There were only a few dozen first rates in the entire world and generally none in the Caribbean/far east and the ones in Europe were often laid up! 

 

Look at Eve - running a merchant ship is a realistic career option - they aren't just there as AI targets! Organising a couple of player frigates to escort your group of merchants to hazardous ports to make a fortune would be a real draw for some... The motivation for the escorts would need thought - XP or reputation leading to bonuses is one way, since paying them would not be realistic (the Admiralty would take a very dim view...)

 

I realise i am probably a lone voice here, but nothing ventured...

[Mirones]

blabla 0815 First rates will overpopulated even through 80guners like Bucantaure carried more heavy guns than Victory blabla the rest of the missing 24 guns are 9lb/12lb peashoters that mean close to nothing in a linefight.

Armor quality based on realships space between the Frames and their Thickness and typ of wood. Moduls like pumps and Magazins location based on original shipplans.

 

Sailing meachincs are Close to real as needed since minor things like Windshadow when passing another ship is to not relevant enough to make it up for the development time.

Leeway is not ingame since your helmsman should be able to correct it. the most usefull feedback on the game came from Ryan21 and the other Real life Sailors.

 

Slower Speed in battles is not needed since only the Navigation map (current Openworld map) is accelerated and scaled down in size but still takes you 16hours with the fastes ship to cross, Victory would be close to 24h.

 

the Merchant part of your post should be an natural given and logical since we are no incompetent overgrown puplisher that pays IGN to giv it an 10/10 to milk the onlinegaming sheeple that throw 50bucks at an Techdemo(atleast acording to standarts of 10years ago)

 

Fair Winds Captain

[mirror452]

 

Oh, and I suspect the game is going to hit a problem as is.... bigger ship = better on all fronts is not a stable game because everyone goes for the bigger ships then all battles end up the same...

 

Bigger ships already have disadvantages... For one, they can't run away when they get jumped on by several frigates. They are incredibly expensive, and it will hurt to lose them, so people will use them only for important PBs.

[Aetrion]

Big ships honestly aren't all that good in this game for a lot of reasons. 

 

For one, when you are very slow you can't run when you're losing and you can't chase when you're winning. That basically means if you're in a super slow ship you're playing for lose or draw. Sure, you might draw a lot, because people have to often run from you, but actually winning is nearly impossible if you can't chase them down. If you're in a small ship on the other hand you play for win or draw. And again, draw might happen often if you have to run from your enemies, but if you ever do get them by their balls they can't get away.

 

But on top of that there is simply the factor of how the combat mechanics play out. A very slow vessel that doesn't turn incredibly fast is really prone to just having an enemy get on their stern and stay there for the whole fight. The only way a 1st rate would ever be able to effectively defend from that is to have multiple big ships covering each other.

 

 

I think if you gave everyone in the game free choice of ships you really wouldn't see a lot of first rates. It'd be sort of the same as World of Warships, where not a whole lot of people use Battleships, because while battleships always outgun the competition, they are rarely able to outmaneuver them. You also see this a lot on Mechwarrior Online. At first glance there is no reason not to use a 100 ton assault class mech, because it just has more armor and more weapons than anything else, but most people in the game prefer the heavy and mediums because mobility actually really matters.

Edited February 14, 2016 by Aetrion

[mirror452]

The only way a 1st rate would ever be able to effectively defend from that is to have multiple big ships covering each other.

 

This is not exactly true. There are maneuvers that you can pull in a SOL to get stern campers into your broadside. However you can only do them if you are not occupied with shooting at another SOL

In general you could say that frigates don't really fight SOLs that are not alone, and SOLs don't fight frigates cause they will always run. If a few frigates catch you SOL alone however... you are screwed

[Aetrion]

Hm, I'd actually be interested in hearing how that maneuver works. 

[mirror452]

Turn your ship into the wind. Works most of the time.

You can also try to make the stern camper overshoot you by slowing down in the right moment. If his reactions are too slow he will sail right into your broadside.

[Sailor Malan]

Whereas in RL, a single well aimed broadside from a SoL into a frigate should be crippled frigate (except for the largest of super frigates and razee 74s). That is why the convention that SoL didnt fire on frigates unless fired on first came from... 

 

I am reassured that people think that medium ships (74s?) would be the ship of choice but for this type of thing frigates should be  - and not only large ones... a 9lber frigate (c26 guns) should be the most common I would think on the grounds it can outrun almost anything it cant outfight and is more than enough for most (in number) ships in the world at that time...Super large figates ought to be almost as expensive as a small (British) 74...

[Jack Marslow]

It works out in game quite well. Frigates and the like can easily take SoLs if they are sailed incorrectly or without support. If you ever find your self in the position of solo sailing an SoL on the open sea your going to have a bad time if your spotted by bad guys. This holds true down the line. A well driven snow can stern camp most of the higher level ships. Privateers and pickles can be a nightmare for a multi deck ship as they cant aim low enough with their fast firing guns.

 

This game comes down to player skill alot and its fantastic. Unlike games where PotBS where it was almost always about the bigger ship, aiming was pressing space bar, and builds were cookie cutter for Iwin buttons this game comes down to player skill more than what boat your in.  

[maturin]

I've said it once, I'll say it several more time.

 

 

Once NA wins GotY, I think the devs should reward their devoted fans by releasing a moddable dedicated server version of the game. That way people can host and edit their own shards as SP trading/exploration games, sailing sims, RP PvE servers, fantasy versions with sea monsters, ironclads...

[Sailor Malan]

blabla 0815 First rates will overpopulated even through 80guners like Bucantaure carried more heavy guns than Victory blabla the rest of the missing 24 guns are 9lb/12lb peashoters that mean close to nothing in a linefight.

Armor quality based on realships space between the Frames and their Thickness and typ of wood. Moduls like pumps and Magazins location based on original shipplans.

 

Sailing meachincs are Close to real as needed since minor things like Windshadow when passing another ship is to not relevant enough to make it up for the development time.

Leeway is not ingame since your helmsman should be able to correct it. the most usefull feedback on the game came from Ryan21 and the other Real life Sailors.

 

Slower Speed in battles is not needed since only the Navigation map (current Openworld map) is accelerated and scaled down in size but still takes you 16hours with the fastes ship to cross, Victory would be close to 24h.

 

the Merchant part of your post should be an natural given and logical since we are no incompetent overgrown puplisher that pays IGN to giv it an 10/10 to milk the onlinegaming sheeple that throw 50bucks at an Techdemo(atleast acording to standarts of 10years ago)

 

Fair Winds Captain

Did I tread on someone's toes? I was not implying anything about the publisher, and was deliberately talking about another use of the engine. The main point of my initial post was to ask if the engine would be available for more classic wargames. I am not involved in the game at present and was not commenting on the gameplay in there (except to ask whether the game was going to have enough player challenges or be a 'bigger is better' system.)

 

Oh, and 12lbers are not pea shooters - they are the heaviest field land weapon and probably equivalent to say 6" in the late 19th/early 20th century. Having said this, in value for money terms a 3rd rate 74 (medium or large) is probably best value for money in RL. 1st rates were too big, expensive to build and almost impossible to crew. Guns larger than 24 lbs are much harder to load and hence slower. the RN retreated from 42 lbers on the lower deck because they deemed this size to be impractical at sea (they settled on 32lbers). Oh, and French pounds are bigger so a French 36 is bigger than a RN 42... RoF should be very slow. 

 

What matters is not number of guns but weight of ball delivered per time (weight x RoF assuming balls are big enough to damage the ship or crew)

[Mirones]

nothing it happens atleast 1-2 times a month that some brings up the argument of to many first rates yet now you post in detail why 74s and other large 2 deckers are better.

and the difrence in national weight is also known we even made a spread shet wich includes the system from venice (wich is just a mess).

 

yes gampeplay is entirely skill based to answer your question more directly.

[Hyperion74]

Hey Mirones, Hope your well. I'm playing and posting again.

 

Hyperion don't like big boat

Hyperion like frigate

Big boat for big fight

Frigate is cooler than big boat.

 

Well I enjoyed that. I don't think that we will have that problem.

Twood be a god engine for other games.