Is naval action more PVP or Econ centered gameplay.

[Justme]

The more I play the more the game feels Econ centered. Yes you can fight but it almost feels like it's forcing you into trading in order to afford the best ships equipment to fight with. Almost to the point to where you have to chose between sailing long trade routes or hoping to find pvp.

Or I could be crazy lol.

[Mrdoomed]

Im a pirate ,all i do is look for pvp and or trade ships when i dont see any players to attack.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Mrdoomed

[Slamz]

I hope it's a nice balance of both.

 

100% PvP is Planetside: no economy, no personal risk, no sense of investment, fun pewpew for a while and then you feel like you're just doing the same old thing every day (because you are) and then you quit.

 

100% economy is, uh, I dunno, Minecraft I guess. Build stuff. Look at it. Go "welp, I guess I'm done" and then you quit.

 

Whether this game should be 80:20 or 20:80 or 50:50 or whatever, I'm not real sure, but it needs both. We need to log in, build things, feel invested, fight over those things and therefore every fight though technically similar, has a different circumstantial background. Every fight means something different: trying to run the pirates out of the area; trying to stop the flow of iron out of this enemy port; trying to save my favorite oak production port; trying to expand the empire; etc.

 

PvP alone is fun for a while, but it's the economy that provides the different backdrops and prevents the PvP from ever feeling stale.

[Lord Roberts]

80/20 PVE/PVP

[Nathaniel]

Even if i feel at times that there is still too much PvE in this game, nearly everything they've done specific to the economy seems to actually promote PvP, which is a good direction to move.

[Bach]

In the beginning the game will naturally have more Econ than pvp. Once you have established your level and ship replacement methods the Econ and PVE can drop off as much as you like. Right now leveling up probably drives your ship replacement faster than pvp loses. But once you get past level 5 that will slow down. You should establish a specific ship design you like. So now you only have to figure out how to supply yourself with one or two ship designs. So you can have more time to seek out pvp.

Whatever the balance is it will ultimately be up to the individual players preference once you have leveled up and stabilized your play style.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Bach

[Aetrion]

I think the game is currently way too focused on economy for a game that really doesn't have a very impressive economy. 

 

For one, the crafting in this game will never be anywhere near on par with a current generation crafting game. It simply can't compete with something like Minecraft or Space Engineers, because it doesn't have the ability to make resource gathering interesting through alterable environments, nor does it have the creative aspect of a game where you can build functional things from smaller pieces. Gathering and Crafting in this game are always going to be auxiliary systems at best, the engine simply doesn't support the things that make for a truly great crafting game.

 

The market aspect of this game is OK as it is right now. It could be better, because I feel like it's not really risky enough to move goods around. There are no NPC that attack you, and players can't see if your ship is running low in the water either, so there is no way to tell if someone is carrying a lot of cargo to try and raid them. I feel like trans-Atlantic trade should be a much bigger theme in a game with several colonial empires as well.

 

If they added a building / tycoon element to the game I fear it would really start to derail the game for people who just want to play as a sea captain and not some kind of businessman. If the ability to use the most powerful warships is purely a function of money you end up with a game where the people who play for the tycoon element end up also being the most powerful in a fight, and the people who play for the combat element end up as mid-level scrubs. That's just kind of dumb, because at that point the game starts treating being the captain of a powerful warship like it's a rich man's hobby that you finance by building a business empire rather than a job you have to be fully devoted to. That just has no semblance of realism in it anymore whatsoever, and is just a slap in the face for people who want to play as a captain, not a tycoon.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Aetrion

[Ruthless4u]

I think the game is currently way too focused on economy for a game that really doesn't have a very impressive economy. 

 

 

If they added a building / tycoon element to the game I fear it would really start to derail the game for people who just want to play as a sea captain and not some kind of businessman. If the ability to use the most powerful warships is purely a function of money you end up with a game where the people who play for the tycoon element end up also being the most powerful in a fight, and the people who play for the combat element end up as mid-level scrubs. That's just kind of dumb, because at that point the game starts treating being the captain of a powerful warship like it's a rich man's hobby that you finance by building a business empire rather than a job you have to be fully devoted to. That just has no semblance of realism in it anymore whatsoever, and is just a slap in the face for people who want to play as a captain, not a tycoon.

My job mainly involves logistics, ( e.x managing food for 6k meals a day, amongst other things) the last thing I want is to spend is my playtime running around 90 percent sessions managing supply instead of hunting down other players, port battles etc.

[jodgi]

The more I play the more the game feels Econ centered. Yes you can fight but it almost feels like it's forcing you into trading in order to afford the best ships equipment to fight with. Almost to the point to where you have to chose between sailing long trade routes or hoping to find pvp.

Or I could be crazy lol.

Sorry, wall of text incoming...

Not crazy... or I'm crazy too... Wait! That is no consolation.

Before I begin: I don't hate eco in itself. It's wonderful that players come to this game for eco, we're all different and enjoy different things, this is by my definition a good thing and should be celebrated.

When crafting first came I started, blue eyed, like everyone else but stopped quickly because it took a lot of time, gold and was boring in the extreme. Later on when I was Commodore and filthy (2-3m banked gold) rich they launched easy teleport, we could teleport our character (not ships) without limit between outposts. I was level 15 in crafting because I had slaved for our "dedicated" crafters, so I thought I should learn what crafting is about to be able to contribute with feedback and just know what they were talking about in general.

Crafting was ok back then simply because you weren't forced to spend accumulated hours hauling stuff. Because of easy tp we could teleport to far off places and spread the contract competition widely so everyone could get hold of what they needed for the clicking. It took a little bit of time, but not too much so I thought "this wasn't so bad after all!?". After the clicking was done we could tp back to civilization and try to find a fight or join a PB. Back then you could have your cake and eat it too.

Then teleport took an arrow to the knee, then deliveries were beaten with the ugly stick. To do eco and crafting now you have to spend a considerable amount of time displacing virtual seawater doing nothing.

I came to the same conclusion as you, Justme, that in order to have access to the true frigate and SOL endgame, you need pimped up golden ships with golden upgrades (A few things liberally implied, but hey!). So I decided that I would endure the crafting grind this time to unlock the full Naval Action gameplay for myself and friends. Based on what could be misleading alpha and EA environment I don't trust the economy to provide the competitive stuff to anyone. I've never seen the useful golden upgrades in any shop, nor heard of it. Those and the ships we really want are given to friends or clan members. RNG and eco drudgery simply make them far too valuable. You may spend the time and gold to click out 20 golden connies, but those that come out as crew/speed, build/speed or more importantly 3/5 slots you either keep yourself or give to friends. The suboptimal golden ones you might sell openly, but I don't believe there has been much of that either.

I'm level 34 right now and can command 200 sailors, that gives an indication of how much time I've spent afk sailing vs. bullying bots. I guess I'm casual+ in terms of how much time I spend in the game so my crafting level reflects that I've received a lot of help from my associates, far more than 1 million gold plus various resources and materials. I also always seek to pay my way out of painful situations, so while everyone were screaming for iron and fighting over oak at 200-450 gold per log, I was out emptying untouched ports of 5k logs and more iron at a discount with a second account. This is insane. When the angry young men show up here to kick my teeth in, they need to address me as a hardcore eco player, because that is what I have become.

Since they took away easy tp and easy deliveries I haven't enjoyed a second of it. I'm dragging my balls through broken glass because I know all grinds end. The only highlight is when I hand a golden frigate to one of the Rakers, the smile on their bright young faces when they pull out in their first real ship gives me some consolation. When they ask me: "Why did you do it?". I'll say: "I did it for you. I did it so that you wouldn't have to.".

To those of you who are still awake, I'll add this: It's interesting that I personally know of three "dedicated" previous crafters, some of them even leading crafters from our third grind, who are either not crafting at all or doing it very casually. I won't name them. I'll leave it to them to join in or pass any discussion about the fun in crafting, this because of the angry young men who tend to insert themselves into discussions where I speak my mind.

Personal note to Justme: If you setup outpost in La Mona I can get you the stuff you want. Hit me up on Steam (jodgi, duh) and I'll give you a golden shower (giggles). Anyone's free to join the Rakers too, all we ask for is willingness to learn. This entails a bruised ego and some amount of pain and, as we have learned, this is not for everyone. You can be a filthy casual shitter as long as you're willing to get better.

 

In the beginning the game will naturally have more Econ than pvp. Once you have established your level and ship replacement methods the Econ and PVE can drop off as much as you like.

This fills me with hope and is exactly why I decided to do the crafting bit this time. I hope and think you're right.

btw, pvp loss has never driven any replacement demand is his game so far. And I don't think it ever will. Do you want the blue or the red pill?

[Aetrion]

My job mainly involves logistics, ( e.x managing food for 6k meals a day, amongst other things) the last thing I want is to spend is my playtime running around 90 percent sessions managing supply instead of hunting down other players, port battles etc.

 

Yea, but the way the game is currently going with the devs trying to restrict what you can use by making you replace it if you lose too many fights it's pretty much guaranteed that players that want to spend the majority of their time fighting are going to get the shaft.

 

Basically there are a bunch of really loud people here who want the ability to fight battles in powerful ships to be a reward for doing a bunch of grindy, boring economy stuff rather than simply being what you do in the game, and they act clueless why some people are against that.

 

My thinking on games is: The good part of the game should be the main part of the game.

Their thinking on games is: The good part of the game is the reward for doing a lot of the meh parts.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Aetrion

[Ruthless4u]

 

My thinking on games is: The good part of the game should be the main part of the game.

Their thinking on games is: The good part of the game is the reward for doing a lot of the meh parts.

I have to side with you on this one, I don't want to spend 2 weeks of meh parts for an hours worth of combat, just to possibly do the 2 weeks of meh again.

That may be fine for people with 4-6 hours a day to play, but if a person's time is more limited then it may be a bit more of a bitter pill to swallow.

Now all that's left is for someone to qoute me saying I'm a filthy casual and I need to go back to playing pong or something lol.

[Ghroznak]

Yea, but the way the game is currently going with the devs trying to restrict what you can use by making you replace it if you lose too many fights it's pretty much guaranteed that players that want to spend the majority of their time fighting are going to get the shaft.

 

Basically there are a bunch of really loud people here who want the ability to fight battles in powerful ships to be a reward for doing a bunch of grindy, boring economy stuff rather than simply being what you do in the game, and they act clueless why some people are against that.

 

My thinking on games is: The good part of the game should be the main part of the game.

Their thinking on games is: The good part of the game is the reward for doing a lot of the meh parts.

 

If everything was simple, easy and free, ergo instant-gratification or close to it, then there would be no satisfaction in a win, no adrenaline when things get hairy and no frustrating when you lose. If ship loss doesn't matter, then wins don't matter either. What is the fun in winning when you really can't lose?

 

You can get plenty of combat out of your ships, if that is what you prefer to do. You have 5 durability on ships which allows you a lot of gameplay, win or lose, as well as plenty leeway to earn back what the ship cost, before you eventually lose it.

 

If you don't like crafting, or trading, or PvP in fear of losing ship, then it is perfectly viable to run missions to earn money, with minimal risk of ship losses.

[akd]

I have to side with you on this one, I don't want to spend 2 weeks of meh parts for an hours worth of combat, just to possibly do the 2 weeks of meh again.

That's not what the game is currently unless you choose that path. I'll admit, devs seem to be steering people to PvE for fastest progress, but it is not forced on you, just encouraged because people aren't worried about having ships to sail, they are worried about having better ships and mods than the other guy. This has little to do with loss, but is the insidious effect of the "gotta have better gear to PvP" mentality, which is encouraged by have big spreads in stats between basic and best items and not having diverse content for ships of various levels.

[Aetrion]

If everything was simple, easy and free, ergo instant-gratification or close to it, then there would be no satisfaction in a win, no adrenaline when things get hairy and no frustrating when you lose. If ship loss doesn't matter, then wins don't matter either. What is the fun in winning when you really can't lose?

 

It's not about easy or free in any way, I just want the combat to be the hard part, not being able to afford to even fight.

[Slamz]

Since they took away easy tp and easy deliveries I haven't enjoyed a second of it. I'm dragging my balls through broken glass because I know all grinds end. The only highlight is when I hand a golden frigate to one of the Rakers, the smile on their bright young faces when they pull out in their first real ship gives me some consolation. When they ask me: "Why did you do it?". I'll say: "I did it for you. I did it so that you wouldn't have to.".

 

Well that's just silly.

 

I'll tell you how we did it in POTBS because ultimately I hope that's how it can be made to work here:

 

People who really, really hate crafting and resources and hauling were told to make very simple, obvious resources and just throw them directly onto the market. If you base out of a port that happens to produce oak, then you make oak, throw it onto the market and be done. No trading, no fussing over it, just click, click, done, takes literally 30 seconds of their day or less. This helps keep oak costs down, gives them some easy money and gives me a place where I know oak is being thrown on the market cheaply.

 

People who like crafting a little bit would do simple things. Maybe monitor the market a little more closely and adjust their prices. Maybe haul to a nearby port where they can sell higher. Maybe turn the oak into simple parts and put THAT on the market. When I want to save some labor hour on simple ship components, I know where to go buy them. They might spend 10 minutes a day rather than 30 seconds.

 

Only people who really enjoyed crafting (maybe 1 person in 10) actually did shipbuilding and sunk any real time into it. But now they don't have to do everything on their own. They know where they can buy various parts and materials and don't have to use all their time and labor going from 0 to finish alone. They put that ship on the market and that lazy oak producer may buy it, partially using the money he made selling his oak on the market.

 

 

If you're complaining about the crafting system because you don't like the economy but find yourself doing it anyway, then you're just falling into the old joke:

"Doctor, it hurts when I do that."

"Well, don't do that."

 

You could make decent money right now just sitting at level 5 at a gold port and spending all your crafting hours on notes and maybe occasionally teleport them to your capital (or let people know where to come buy them).

 

If it's an ordeal, it's because you're making it be one.

[Aetrion]

I like crafting things in games like Space Engineers, where I can drill into asteroids and refine various ores I find and then build ships however I like them. In games like Naval Action it's a bit too much just clicking things for my taste. 

 

Resource generation is just weird right now, since the only way to get resources is to either raid ships or buy them. Since you always play as a ship there isn't really much of a way of having an interesting system for harvesting wood or digging for ore.

 

I'm trying to think about how the resource gathering process could be made more engaging as actual crafting gameplay. Would it make sense to have resource nodes on the map where you can send a crew to shore to chop down some trees? Maybe have the ability to go whaling for oil? Could you get ore by raising cannons from shallow wrecks? Could there be flotsam to pick up?

 

The trading aspect of the game seems to be pretty good, though it's hard to judge from the perspective of someone who doesn't find it particularly interesting. Trading is definitely more realistic than harvesting, since obviously the majority of resources always came from the land, not the sea. It's not really very engaging though, the only difficult part is finding a good trade route, and that's less about skill and more about persistence.

 

Then I'd wonder: Can you customize your ship in ways that make it particularly suited to harvesting things?  For example, a ship that's equipped for whaling would need extra longboats and some kind of kettle for rendering the blubber into oil. Can I equip a trawl on my schooner to allow it to harvest fish?

 

I could imagine having a somewhat interesting use of the sailing mechanics built around trawling for fish, where you need to chase after a large school of fish and try to fill up your net, but you have to be careful not to overload it so much that it breaks or can't be pulled out.

 

That's the kind of stuff the game would need for me to really become interested in harvesting resources. Some kind of system where you actually do ship related stuff to get things.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Aetrion

[jodgi]

If you're complaining about the crafting system because you don't like the economy but find yourself doing it anyway, then you're just falling into the old joke:

"Doctor, it hurts when I do that."

"Well, don't do that."

I hope I was pretty clear about why I'm doing crafting this time?

I guess you could say I'm complaining, but I tell the story so that all those players who came for the action and not boring economy activities may know they're not alone. I'm making an act of resistance against the eco lobby who never suggest anything to make things simpler and less time consuming.

Should the economy ever really work one day, if I'm easily able to buy golden ships with the useful built-ins and useful golden upgrades at a price that matches material costs plus a reasonable percentage, then I can drop crafting entirely and completely. Until then I'll try to keep myself motivated to help supply my friends so that they are not held hostage by the economy dudes.

You could make decent money right now just sitting at level 5 at a gold port and spending all your crafting hours on notes and maybe occasionally teleport them to your capital (or let people know where to come buy them).

I don't want money, I want fights.

If it's an ordeal, it's because you're making it be one.

Do you find entertainment in staring at your screen while your trader goes gerade aus for close to an hour so you'll have stuff to secure clicking the next day or two?

I'm wired to avoid boredom, not embrace it.

[Justme]

Starting to wonder if the Econ guys here who love staring at the screen and just clicking every so often are guys who only play artillery in World of tanks.

[jodgi]

Had a guilty pleasure chuckle at that.

[Ruthless4u]

Had a guilty pleasure chuckle at that.

It' certainly explains why the Econ guys avoid fighting and instead prefer the thrills and fast paced action of click' trade.

[Bach]

I don't mean to throw a damper on this argument. I think you all have good points. However, naval action is a far more flexible game than POTBS or even EVE. No one needs to do any Econ in NA. The NPCs sell ships you can just buy. If you don't want to buy them this game allows you to capture and store NPC ships for your use. The only thing you have to buy are cannons. They are sold by NPCs, can be transferred from ship to ship and are very cheap to begin with. No one has to do Econ to participate in any part of this game.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Bach

[jodgi]

Except the competitive part.

[akd]

Except you don't.

[Mrdoomed]

Except the competitive part.

That depends on your definition of competitive. Im very happy sailing in my smaller ships taking my time and fighting players in ships i can fight or getting together with a friend to take bigger ones.

If your definition of competitive is being a top player and being the most feared person alive then you need to do more.

[Aetrion]

Well, some people just want to play a game where how feared you are depends on how well you fight, not how much time you have for grinding or how big your clan is.