gozer

The 5k flat rate reward would be good idea ... week ago, before the 9.63 patch. Now? Well, it is technically still a good idea, but the last patch really threw new players under the bus. The 9.63 patch dumped huge ammount of gold into economy, ship prices jumped up, oak and fir didn't really get more available (and certainly didn't get cheaper) and hemp price is through the roof. And now new players will be stuck with 5k reward per mission. Sure, it'll help them get their first few basic NPC-crafted ships a bit faster, but they will be royally screwed when it comes to buying crafted ships (of any decent quality) or trying to buy any ammount of bottleneck resources (oak/fir/hemp) to try to do some crafting to raise crafting level. So as for the economy, in the long run (very, very, very long run) the change will probably help the economy. As for new players ... well, devs might as well play the trololo song at the end of mission for new players. "Well done on the mission, new player. Here is your 5k gold. Oh and by the way, we spent whole last week stuffing millions into everyones pockets, just before you started playing. So spend your 5k wisely, it can buy you whole 10 units of hemp ... if you are lucky. Trololo-lo-lo lo-lo-lo, trololo-lo-looooo"

edit: Uzii beat me to the question

it was already very easy to capture any trader. Even with basic cutter you could catch and capture any NPC trader ship in less than 10 minutes. Even less if you properly positioned yourself on OW map. And the only way NPC trader could flee was if you did something horribly wrong, either started attack on OW with really bad positioning or used really bad intercept course. Since traders only run away in very predictable direction (based on wind direction) the whole difference between battle where trader was far away and able to flee, or battle where you can fire at trader ship within first minute of battle, was 10-20 second spent getting into position on OW, that is all. The speed nerf just made already easy game mechanic even easier. what is the point of the speed nerf? To save players those 10-20 extra seconds on OW map? Or to make chasing the traders so easy that you can catch any trader in any ship by simply setting full sails and pointing the regardless how poor positioning or how bad intercept course you use? Is making already very easy PvE mechanic much easier really worth taking away the only defense player driven trader ships had in PvP?

what happy medium? In current system there is no such thing. You either have resource so abundant that you can find it everywhere in huge quantities and no one cares about it (what happened to iron after last patch), or it is in low or very low supply which means there are contracts for this bottleneck resource in absolutely every port that produces it, 100% of the ammount produced immediatelly disappears into contracts and then it is either hoarded (to make buffer for crafting) or ends being resold in nation capital at very inflated price. There is no point trying to check ports if you find the resource there ... unless you have contract placed you won't find it, period. So all you can do is place contract, which is now way easier because with the increased gold rewards you have a lot more money you can dump into contracts. Which means that any bottleneck resource production will still keep disappearing immediatelly ... There are how many ports on the map in total ... 250? Depending on nation you can access maybe 60-100 ports (your nation + neutral), maybe 1/3 of those are producing the resource you need ... that brings you to number somewhere around 30 ports (maybe less for small nations with few ports, maybe more for bigger nations). So all you need is 30 contracts and entire production is gone. Is there anyone crazy enough to think that economy can work in situation where 30 contracts can completely bottleneck production, on server that has over 2k players online during peak time and much larger total player count? With the current system we will always be in this economic hellhole where any resource is either 100% irrelevant or 100% bought out everywhere. No middle ground.

that is just nonsense. Lets take a wild guess what you'll find out ... 1) even after changes economy is still screwed, because you didn't touch the underlying problem of entire production of bottleneck resource(s) being locked in contracts 2) bottleneck resource will shift to hemp (necessary for ship crafting but didn't get production increased to ridiculous numbers yet) 3) with other resources available in large ammounts the current 'Contract Wars' will shift to hemp 4) increased gold rewards will make it that much eaiser to dump more money into contracts, making bottleneck resources even less available because gold needed to buy out entire daily production is now basically pocket change for any mission runner 5) next week we will have 'hemp crisis' patch ... and then this 'economy as designed by 5 year old' cycle will continue if you want to test abundant supplies, why don't you look at different servers? If all servers use the same production numbers, then the servers with lower population must be absolutely drowning in the resources (maybe with exception of the few ports nearest to the national capitals, where all the lazy players roam)

I really don't like this. Just like the "iron crisis" patch this is just brute-force approach to problem and doesn't fix the economy. Last patch flooded market with iron (to the point that now it is absolutely everywhere and almost irrelevant) and this patch does pretty much the same thing ... it will just shift the "bottleneck" resource to something else, most likely hemp (prediction for next patch). What needs to be done is change how contracts work ... because right now the economy is pretty much Contract Wars. Almost entire production of certain resources for next few days/weeks is locked in contracts. And thanks to the fact that contracts work even when player is offline and purchase all production as fast as it is produced, no need for storage space and hour by hour updates on contract status (you see if someone has beaten your price) contracts are way too effective. There really needs to be some changes, otherwise we'll just get these "bottleneck resource X crisis" patches that shift the problem a little but in reality don't fix anything. http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/9735-patch-963-iron-crisis/?p=176996

nevermind, problem seems to be at my end. After restarting Steam it downloaded patch again and now NPCs work correctly.

nice spindoctoring, but this isn't about skill or lack of it because there is no skill involved whatsoever. Contract screen gives you yourly updates so you know if the contract is working or not and all you need is sail to the port, cancel your contract and post new one with higher price. Where exactly is there any skill needed? All you need is a bit of time. And some patience if you find yourself in bidding war with someone else who is doing the same thing in the same port. With the current way contracts work the entire production of certain resources is forever tied in contracts. You can sail through entire area and find all harbors producing that resource empty (right now it is mostly oak and fir. There is no way around it, the only way it to play contracts war. The whole economy revolves around the fact who has more patience (or time) to update their contract prices more often. Sure, you can learn to exploit the game mechanic and if you do it better than others in your area you'll get to the resources. But it turns entire game economy into contract wars, where you only need to update the contract from time to time and then the automatic buy/sell script does all the work for you even when you are offline. If this is what the game economy was planned to look like then fine, but somehow I doubt it. now we get to the things that I think are really broken in the context of the rest of the game mechanics 1) no need for outposts/storage space with contracts if you run missions or hunt traders from port where you don't have outpost, you can't store anything there. you either have to carry everything on your ship, or you have to sell the stuff, or it is simply destroyed if you leave the port. For contracts there is no storage needed. You can have items/resources 'stored' in unclaimed contract indeffinitely for no costs. Why? Either the game should require you to have outpost (that would provide storage space) in the harbor where you have contract placed, or there should be some sort of fee for providing temporary storage, with cost based on how many resources you have there and how long you leave them there. Looking at limited outpost slots and the rate with which cost of both permits and outposts increases whenyou get more of them, it is pretty clear that game developers have decided that players shouldn't have unlimited storage available to them everywhere. Contracts should work within the same limits. 2) you get hour by hour updates on the contract status (how many resources has the contract bought) game is set in the age of sails era and all other game mechanics work within the limitations of that era. Game requires you to be in the same port if you want to get any information ... production, items/resources available in shop and their prices, you can't even list items you have stored in any of your outposts. So why exactly do contracts give you information regardless of distance? Place any contract you want, but if you want to find out if the contract is working or not then you should go to that port to check ... you shouldn't be able to get hour by hour updates from across the entire Carribbean area. change these two things and the entire contract wars problem sorts itself out (but then certain players would lose their profitable lazymode ... how awfull)

the 100 / 101 price was just an example I'm not asking for plentiful and cheap goods, I'm asking that the goods should be obtained by players, not by automatic scripts. I get it that you are really in love with game mechanic that allows you to purchase resources even when you are offline, store any ammount of resource indeffinitely for no aditional cost in any port regardless if you have outpost there or not, and even notifies you with hour by hour updates if the script is still working or not (which means someone has outbid your contract). No need to check if resource is in stock, no need to check prices, no need to spend time sailing to target port to purchase available ammount of resource ... contract does everything for you, buying entire available production as fast as it is produced and even tells you when it stops working so you can make a trip to the port to adjust the contract to new price. Come on, if you want to play as trader then spend time doing some actual trading. Don't require the game to do all work for you while you take a nap or watch a movie. And as much as you might like this as very profitable source of income, this game mechanic in the form as it is done now simply doesn't fit the era or game theme.

not blocked as in disabled, but blocked from entering the stockpile in harbor I'm not against scarcity of resources, that should deffinitely stay in game. What I dislike most about the current contract system is that it works on way too big scale and that it works even when player is offline or at the other side of the map. On one hand that is very usefull, on the other hand it turns any attempt to find certain resource into Naval Action Contract War edition. sure, if I sail into harbor and there is none of the resource I need because it is bought out by active contract then I can set up contract of my own with higher price ... and that will again buy out all the production, this time into my stockpile, until either my contract ammount is filled or until other player comes around and sets up another contract with even higher price. Lets use the oak log and 240 production per day (which is 10 units per real hour) port as example. Sail into port, find out that there is contract buying all production for 100 gold per unit, so I set my own contract for 101gold, lets say for 60 units (6 hours production). Few hours later someone else enters the port and because he doesn't find any oak logs in stockpile he sets his own contract, 102 gold per unit for unknown ammount. Thanks to the fact that ammount bought so far through the contract is shown in contract screen, if I'm online I'll find one hour later that the contract I placed no loger works because someone has placed higher priced contract. I don't know how big contract (or how many contracts from how many players) are above mine, so the only thing I can do is go back to the port, claim the ammount bought by contract so far and replace the contract with new one beating the latest displayed price. And then the cycle continues, with god knows how many players trying to beat each other in contract prices just to get some friggin oak logs. There aren't many ports producing certain resources and the ammounts produced are really low (in low hundreds), which means that just a few contracts from few players for pretty small ammounts can tie entire harbor production for next few days or weeks into contracts ... waiting this out really isn't an option, that would only mean you never get any of the resource. there really needs to be some sort of mechanism to keep the contracts at least somewhat in check option 1) simply limit the maximum ammount you can contract ... fixed ammount, or percentage of harbor production --> simplest solution, but not really ideal. Some adjustment of contract limits would probably be good as part of broader solution, but the limit won't solve this by itself. option 2) limit placing contracts only to ports where you have outpost --> it would make sense, if I can't store anything in ports without outpost (if I sail away items are destroyed) then I shouldn't be able to stockpile tons of resources there with no real limitations. It would also mean player has to place outposts strategicaly if he wants to produce resources through contracts. And the price of outposts (permits + outposts) means that player can't have unlimited number of outposts, meaning he can't have contract in every single port he sails into. Or as alternative, pay hefty storage fee depending on how long and what ammount you stored in port where you don't have outpost. option 3) don't show the ammount bought so far in the contract overview --> frankly, this should happen in any case. It would simply mean that contracts would use the same rules (and limits of the age of sail era) about information given to player as the rest of the game. You can't check prices/resources in harbors unless you are in that harbor. You can't list items stored in your outposts (unless you are in that harbor). Etc .... so why does the game report to player that in last hour he bought 10 more oak logs in harbor thousand miles away where he doesn't even have outpost? In the contract list you should only see what contracts you have placed (ammount, price) and where, but not the hour by hour update on ammount bought. If you want to check how much resources your contracts have bought, you have to check manually by going to the harbor. I have nothing against players buying out entire production of harbor if they want to. But it should be player who does that, not automatic script that saps even the tiniest ammount produced from the harbor immediately and even notifies the owner about it across hundred of miles.

problem is that finding resources had nothing to do with any challenge. And still doesn't, thanks to contracts, the problem still stands ... it will just hit other resources harder now that iron will be a more common (and things like carriages cost less to craft). Even before the change iron was possible to find ... simply because of the ammount produced in various ports. For fir logs or oak logs the problem was much bigger and still is (these will now become the limiting resources for ship crafting). Even before the patch iron was produced in 1-3k quantities in ports ... unlike other resources that barely get into hundreds. Iron was annoying to find ... oak and fir was (and still is) in some areas impossible to find. If port produces let's say 250 oak logs per realtime day (so far I have seen production between 150 - 350) placing contract for 1k oak logs will buyout all production for next four days. And that is just one player placing contract. Yes, you can beat the contract price, but that just means that the contracts stack on top of each other and the complete production of that harbor will be blocked for weeks. And that is a big problem, because there aren't that many harbors producing these particular resources. There are how many ports on the entire map ... 250, maybe 300? You can't use ports owned by other nations, that leaves you with neutral ports, free towns and ports belonging to your nation ... from the ports that are accessible to you maybe 1/3 produce the resource you need in volume of a few hundred per day ... and that production can be blocked for weeks by very small number of contracts. This system as it is is unbelievably broken. But I agree that just increasing production isn't solution. The whole system needs serious rework or limiting of contracts. Set maximum contract cap a lot lower. Or limit contracts only to ports where you have outpost. Because right now you can sail into any port, place contract there in volume that would take weeks to produce the number there, if you manage to buy that ammount you can have it stockpiled in the port indeffinitely despite not having outpost (and thus storage space) there and you can repeat this in all ports you manage to get into (accessible to you, neutral or your own nation). With this system and the limited number of ports producing certain resources, very small number of players can corner entire market by buying out entire production, or at the very least hike prices ridiculously high.

this is good change, but now oak and fir are going to be even more of a problem, since they had much lower production in ports and so they are MUCH easier to buy out entire port production through contracts. 1) increase fir and oak production a little (just to bring it a bit more in line with the increase in iron ore in this patch) 2) SERIOUSLY limit maximum ammount for contracts. With most resources being produced barely in hundreds in ports (with exception of coal and iron) it is extremely easy to hoard them. When port has 200 oak log production per day and player can place contract for 3000 units, guess how long no one else is buying any oak in that port? (unless they beat his contract price, but that just means someone else is hoarding the whole production for next X realtime days). 3) maybe limit contracts only to outposts? really, player can't leave absolutely anything in port where he doesn't have outpost (you have to sell stuff or place outpost, otherwise it is destroyed when you leave port), but he can have metric frackton of resources in volume of thousands there stacked from contracts ready for claiming? that doesn't make much sense

... and basically anything from Two Steps From Hell

so disappointing to see Steam download something, heading to forums and finding no patch notes ...

I don't know about crafting timers in this game ... there is really A LOT of different things you need to craft if you want to make a ship for example and even 12 consecutive production runs wouldn't get you very far (and would be even bigger problem before you'd get crafting high enough to get the 12max). In some cases you craft end-product directly, for many things you nees one or more middle steps, with many of those mid-products not only needed as resource for further part production, but also needed directly for ship production. Just look at the eighth circle of hell that is crafting anything needing iron ingots / iron fittings, if you want to build even a small ship it is crazy how many production runs you'd need before you manufacture just the items that need iron somewhere in the production chain. And in this game players spend lots of time sailing somewhere far away from their outpost / prouduction center and then they can't really manage production without having to spend a lot of time having to run back to their production harbor (or teleporting). maybe having timers for big things like ship construction or ship upgrades, but leaving the "small item" production as instant crafting ...