Minas Moth

I find mounted infantry weapons really underwhelming at the moment...Which is really kind of a problem mobility wise and option wise for the player...But...I will build a mounted infantry division at one point for sure and see what will be the best was to use them...Just need to do more testing to find their use...

@pandakraut I have a question... what the heck is DNC RIFLE you put in game instead of the Whitworth? 🤔

After playing even more I have some other stuff to report about... My MJ Union Campaign has gone up to Cold Harbor... All the Major Battles so far have been a cakewalk actually... Union players that rely heavily on use of artillery units have nothing to worry about really... If using mostly 14pdr James, Whithworths, 4.5inch siege artillery, 20pdr Parrots, 10pdr Parrots and 24pdr Howitzers your campaign is won very easily... Regarding the artillery perks, IMO I don't see any use of anything but perks that focus on long range fire. even for 24pdr Howitzers the long range perks work great as they increase your range considerably as well as accuracy which coupled with their high damage output makes them murderous. Only other artillery perk I find useful is horse artillery perk. I find it quite funny seeing my Horse artillery towing 20pdr Parrots around the field at the speed of light. The Horse artillery perk should be limited to certain (lighter) types of guns and should stop at 3-inch Ordnance and 24pdr Howitzer. I say that about the 24pdr howitzer because despite the weight of the shot the 24pdr Howitzer was quite a light canon. To test this theory about "uber artillery" I have started campaign with CSA just to see how and can they cope with the Union artillery Wise. I know they historically couldn't but I am curious how they will fare in game.

That should be tested extensively... At the moment there are occasions where AI's units just will not break, even though they are fired upon from multiple flanks (check one of my Shiloh Battle posts in this thread)... Also, apart from game-play reasons, this thing should be done with utmost care for historic reasons also. For example the famous Stonewall Brigade after Chancellorsville was left with around 1.500 men. In 1864 and Overland Campaign the fighting at the Mule Shoe virtually gobbled up the entire Brigade with a regiment of 200 men being all that is left. Also, several authors (like McPherson) suggested that average soldier/unit morale in the ACW was indeed very, very high because units were made from men of the same County and more often than not they were bonded by family and friendship ties. So mass routs or breaking of units were not very common and not something that could be easily achieved. There are ample examples, like Union Irish Brigade that didn't cease to exist after failed assault on the Marye's Heights at Fredericksburg. In the western theater there are even more units that sustained 60-80% casualties in a single battle and yet they still didn't dissolve as a unit. If anything, I would personally like to see surrender mod expanded as it already feels intuitive and historically more accurate than mass breaking of the enemy's units. However this is just my opinion and all I can do is offer some historical reference as to why things could be done this or that way.

@pandakraut so there is no way to change the curves themselves?

@pandakraut Regarding the artillery in the mod... I think Napoleon 12 pdr and 3-inch Ordnance Rifle should be reworked (buffed a bit). 1. The Model 1857 gun (or Napoleon) was the most popular and dependable gun. its best characteristics were that it was effective, reliable and very easy to maneuver. It had a range o 1.600 yards (1.463 meters) at five degrees elevation and optimal effective range was 1.200 yards (1.097 meters). It was also classified as gun-howitzer because of its shorter than standard barrel and light weight. For example, Spherical case shot at 3,45 degrees elevation could reach effectively to 1.135 yards (1.038 meters) and Shell at same elevation could reach up to 1.300 yards (1.189 meters). Also, a solid shot was quite effective as the "ball" would bounce of the ground and continue to injure and kill people even beyond it's effective range. Especially it has to be considered that it was the most popular gun of the war as it had best performance for its cost. 2. The Model 1861 3-inch wrought iron rifle (or 3-inch ordnance rifle) was probably second in popularity (right after Napoleon 12 pdr). It fired Schenkl and Hotckiss shells to as far as 2.000 yards (1.829 meters) using a one pound powder charge. it could achieve maximum elevation of 16 degrees and could fire up to 4.180 yards (3.822 meters). And it was famous for its accuracy. It also wasn't the most expensive artillery piece out there and it was a great at counter battery fire. Basically what I mean is... increase the performance of both the guns a bit. Increase the prices and lower availability of other artillery pieces.

@GioMoreno & @pandakraut Regarding artillery and casualty rates both in American Civil War and this mod. Artillery of the time was devastating. Every weapon from 6pdr to big siege guns had an immense potential to deal carnage. The most of that potential was fulfilled when: a) capable men like Hunt on the Union side and Alexander Porter on the Confederate side commanded artillery units b) ammunition and here I especially refer to shrapnel shot was not faulty (which was a big problem for CSA) and time fuses were set correctly and actually burned for the time they were set. in a computer game you obviously can recreate such faults in ammunition but it is much easier and elegant to use other mechanics. In this game artillery all uses same A standard ammo that never fails, and when you add to the mix more and more experienced commanders that "know what they are doing" you get really good artillery units that indeed can and should be able to win battles. On the fact of most of the casualties being inflicted by small arms fire. This is very very true but the thing is in American Civil War from around 10 000 engagements not many were fought in places where artillery could be used effectively. You have to keep in mind that at that point in time most of artillery was what we would call field artillery in a sense they needed direct line of sight to engage the enemy. Indirect fire was rare. Now imagine making a 6 gun battery maneuver through thick vegetation of Shiloh, Wilderness, Chancellorsville or complete area of Vicksburg campaign. On the other hand in places where artillery could actually use its full potential it proved murderous. Point and case would be battles of Malvern Hill, Fredericksburg, Gettysburg etc... In fact, some scholars claim that even at Gettysburg most of guns never fired at their maximum effective range as they either couldn't see what they were supposed to shoot or they couldn't reach it because of the terrain (most of the guns had a maximum effective range of 1.600 to 2.000 yards or 1.463 meters to 1.829 meters) . And Gettysburg is one of if not the only battle where long range artillery duels happened. The entire point why Lee decided to fight at Wilderness during Overland Campaign was to rob Grant of two things Union bested Confederates at: 1) use of artillery and 2) superior range and accuracy of Union muskets. Now as you know, the base game doesn't work like that. Artillery can fire from weird angles as long as some units are spotting the targets. There are no elevation or terrain penalties for the artillery or areas where you can't even move it because it will not be effective. Also, one of the most exploited mechanics in this game is players putting their batteries in densely forested area. That thing very, very rarely happened in Civil War as the logistics involved were just not worth the end result. Bottom line, as a former modder, there is not much you can do with certain aspects of any game. And complexity which would involve proper artillery representation of the era simply outweighs the cons of the current system of the base game.

@pandakraut and what about ammunition or projectile type? when I used to mod for American Civil War Empire Total War we used different values for projectiles to even further the detail and unique features of certain weapons.

From my experience so far with this mod and I usually play every battle two or three times just to see what will work and what will not work it seems that most of the problems for the AI comes if player isn't playing by the script or historically how the battle objectives were set, units placed etc. Case and point is the battle of Gaines Mill... If you play it historically and try to hold the breastworks you are doomed. However if you form your defensive line on the creek that runs north-south on the western part of the map the AI will kill itself trying to force a crossing. A boggy terrain, water crossing and forest really hamper the AI... But guess what, Lee would also be extremely hampered had McClellan formed his line there. What I'm trying to say is... the moment the AI gets really "better" most people will not bother with the game anymore. As it is now, I find a lot of stuff placed well with some tweaks here and there that will do the trick. At the moment the replay-ability of the game comes from this mod forcing you to find new ways on how to fight battles. I get very mixed results... I had land slide victories with 10 to 1 casualties in my favor, I had narrow victories with more losses on my side, I had defeats snatched from the jaws of victory when AI managed to take the objective in last second. Perk system could be tweaked a bit... especially the "scale of bonuses" that perks grant to a certain units. @pandakraut how does the damage dealing system work? are all parameters tied to a certain weapon or are there also some values that affect the ammunition (bullet etc)?

PHASE III - HORNETS NEST When this phase opens up pull back your troops that defended the Spain and Larkin Fields toward the Hornets Nest. Your line should move in the tree line from east to west like this: on the far east you should put 2 or three smaller (around 150 men equipped with low quality guns) skirmisher to harass the enemies flank. Make your line in the woods from river in a more or less straight line west to the Hornets Nest. Now from Hornets Nest make your line run south east so it links up with your Shiloh Church Defenders. By now, Rebels attacking Shiloh Church should be out of steam and all of your defenders should start rolling up Rebels left flank. Optimally you want to do that as fast as possible as you want to start pouring the fire into the Rebels amassing for the attack on the Hornets Nest. Once you clear them off from Spain field and position your Napoleons and 24pdr Howitzers in the woods just North of the Spain field the battle is over. In effect you will always cross AI's T and poor fire into his flank. From then on it is just one giant mop up. When Bruce's and Ammen's Brigade come in you will be able to push even from Hornets Nest South. Advance your guns with your infantry to constantly whip the enemy. And that is basically it... The Battle of Shiloh is decided in the First Phase... and if you do that right, everything else is like a park walk

So here is my experience on completing the Shiloh as Union on Major General difficulty on the First Day. 1. ARMY SETUP: Career Points: Army Organization should be at least 6 (with other points distributed as you please but either Training, Medicine or Economy seem to be the ones that should be focused on although Logistics could be very good for such a battle as it takes a lot of ammo). I have managed to win the battle with 26 Brigades in 2 Corps (25 Brigades in I st Corps and 1 Brigade in II nd Corps). Weapons: this early in campaign it could be difficult to acquire number of guns needed to field army large enough to bring as much units as possible. However don't be reluctant to use career points to acquire more quality weapons. I fielded 2 Brigades with Lorenz Rifles, 1 Brigade with Springfield 1861, 5 Brigades with SF1855s, and the rest used whatever was left to use. Units and Positioning: To win the battle as painless as possible keep care off and develop units you got after Philippi... Optimally, you should have 2 2 star infantry Brigades, and 1 2 star Artillery Unit... My First Corps Setup was like this: 1st Division=3 Infantry Brigades, 2 Artillery Brigades, 2nd Division= 3 infantry Brigades, Cavalry Brigade (300 men strong) and 1 Battery (which didn't come in to the Shiloh Phase). Artillery: Now, that Artillery unit is of paramount importance. I equipped mine with 12 pdr Napoleons because I brought it up to 12 guns but I chose Long Range and Extreme Range Perks for that unit (as I had in mind future guns I'll equip to that unit). Also, the second Artillery unit was equipped with 24pdr Howitzers (8 of them) and also chose Long Range Perk for it. Those two Artillery units are absolutely crucial to bring in to defense of the Shiloh Church. Napoleons work best if positioned just south-west of the Shiloh Church in a way that left of the unit rests just below the corner of the Church. The 24pdrs How. should be positioned on the east part on the road that goes north of the tree line above the stream where the camp is...If you get it right, both of your batteries will have optimal range to use shell when enemy gets out of woods to cross the stream, and once they start crossing they will get in the canister range while crossing the stream. Also such positioning will give you ability to Enfilade enemies with either Napoleons or Howitzers depending where the enemy puts the pressure on you. Other than that, I also had a battery of 4 14 pdr James Rifles that came in during Hornets nest Phase, 3 Reserve Batteries of 6 pdrs and 1 Reserve Battery of Napoleons. Infantry: Remember that 2 star Infantry units we were talking about earlier? How to put them to good use' Firstly, equip them with Lorenz Rifles you get for career points. Secondly, one of the units should hold the line (you can put it anywhere you think the pressure will be big). However the other 2 star units (In my case it was the 5th US Inf.) should get in the tree line on the western part just west of the farm. Do not put unit into that farm. Rest of Infantry should be positioned in a way their optimal range starts when Rebels get out of woods and start crossing the stream. Cavalry: For me... that single 300 men strong cavalry brigade is what won me the entire battle on the first day. You can equip them with palmetto 1842 and a sword, they will do just fine. Commanders: Your General should be in command of the 1st Corps... Divisions should be commanded by Lt. Colonels and your Brigades by Colonels whenever possible. Batteries can be commanded by Majors, Captains etc. PHASE 1 - THE SHILOH CHURCH: This is the phase that will either make or break your battle of Shiloh...If you chose correct army setup and positioned your units with good arcs of fire as explained above then you should be good. When the AI starts charging always use fall back option in order to break up their charge... Also, focus your guns on the enemy units that have gone the furthest in the woods. They have cover bonus there and are occupying place you want to get back to when they are driven off. When such units are routed always shift focus on AIs 3 star and 2 star brigades with your guns. Work them over as much as you can... To break them for the first time is very hard but if they break once every other time it will be easier. I managed to completely shatter 3 star 980 strong unit. So in the center the game is: Focus artillery fire, retreat and advance your infantry Brigades to occupy favorable positions. Now, when the battle starts, AI will send some Mounted Infantry (Avery's Cavalry) on your western flank. The one where one of your 2 star Infantry Brigades is sitting in the tree line... Couple of volleys will take care of them. Once dealt with advance your 2 star unit south-east so it can get into the flank of the Rebels that charge over the stream and into the woods below the Shiloh church. Even if AI sends some units further west to try to push for the farm they can be easily routed by cross fire from Shiloh Church woods and your right flank. As soon as you rout the Avery's Cavalry move your Cavalry Brigade across the stream and send it deep south. Once all of the enemies Brigades spawn in (I think Polk's Corps is the last one) it is time to rob the Rebels of all of their supplies. It is paramount to capture both of the supply wagons while they are still all the way down south (aka before they move up and are protected by infantry and guns). When you get them, send them on a wide western flanking march all the way to your lines. This move seals the battle of the Shiloh and secures you victory on the first day. This supplies will keep your guns and Brigades firing while disabling Rebels ability to fight effectively. At one point, My second Corps came in...though only thing I could afford was 1000 men strong skirmisher unit equipped with Percussion Muskets (so not a lot of force that came in). But bit by bit enemy got withered down, and I just pushed east with my single brigade that poured flanking fire into attacking Rebels at the beginning. In the end, that single Brigade rolled up almost entire flank of the rebel army. PHASE II - SPAIN AND LARKIN FIELDS: Depending on how many Brigades you have (above or below 30) you can choose to fight here for a while or let the AI take the Spain Field and move to the next phase...

@pandakraut I have done it!!!!!!!! And what a victory it was... I will post a tactics if that is ok with you tomorrow, it will maybe help someone Note... The 1st Excelsior Light Artillery is equipped with Napoleons... Look at those boys killing everything lol....

@pandakraut Shiloh Report... Take number 8... Somewhere in a galaxy far, far away... So, I've decided to make another try at MJ Shiloh as the Union and I failed (again)... Managed to field 25 Brigades of decently equipped and experienced soldiers (same soldiers won landslide victories at Manassas, river crossing and crossroads). The part I don't get is how to field more than this 25 brigades (equipping a second corps)? In the camp prior to the Shiloh there were no cheap guns left; I have had acquired all of the musket, re-bored muskets and percussion muskets. My best units are equipped with Lorenz rifles and Springfield M1861s and I have watched a closely on the money I spend... Current Career build i have is Training 4, Economy 4, Army Organization 6, Logistics 1, Reconnaissance 1. I field guns from 6 pdrs to 14 pdr James rifles. Generally all units are in a good shape (few command/efficiency penalties), However, I noticed the lack of officers available in barracks... all that was left were Brigadier generals and Majors and you know how expensive those BG are. Up to the battle...somehow during the Phase I i managed to hold the positions around the Shiloh church. Even managed to capture Rebel supplies and shift them to my position. However, AI had 3 Regiments of Artillery (700 men every single one of them). Also, as I have only 25 Brigades I didn't get any reinforcements during the first phase (I don't know if that is what determines the arrival of reinforcements). On the Second Phase my units made up mostly of militia managed to stall the confederate advance but eventually a mistake on my part made the Contested timer on Spain Field run down (and I didn't reset it) so the battle went to Phase 3. And that one hurt like hell. My Right Flank at the Shiloh church still held but started to crumble due to overextended use...My 1000 strong regiments went down to some 200 men. And even though my 5th US Regular Infantry managed to rake 2.500 kills with support of 1st Excelsior Regiment of Artillery (12 Napoleons) who managed to get some 3.700 kills my units began to crumble and shatter. On the far east of the battle (Union left) AI brought up 2 regiments (one 2 star charge regiment 4.500 strong and another 2 star charge regiment 2.700 strong). In total 7.200 men against some 1.600 of my militia equipped with rocks basically... One moment of neglect and those behemoths charged in them and routed them and then just kept on steam rolling over my lines. On the 3rd Phase fall back wasn't very effective to break up enemies charges as they would just keep on going and going and going and going... Hell, I think some of the Rebels kept on going all the way to Chicago. All in all, in the Third Phase I was defeated within a hour of its opening. I managed to inflict 27.000 casualties on AI's 52.000 men army, but my units were exhausted and without ammunition. Now after almost 10 tries at Shiloh I give the following conclusion: 1. 25 Brigade strong Army could be possible to get you to a draw at Shiloh but i doubt it will get you all the way to the win. 2. Building up a 35 Brigade Army seems like a best way to win the battle, however this one has its own very big problems: The cost of officers you need to make more army organizations will really hamper your economy and once you have shuffled all the officers you could and are left only with Brigadier Generals who cost 20+k and Majors who suck, you are really screwed, Amount of captured weapons is underwhelming. Counting Philippi, Distress Call, First Bull Run, River Crossing and Crossroads I have received (in total) 2.146 Muskets, 1.324 Percussion Muskets and 757 Re-Bored Muskets. That amount of equipment is barely enough to equip 4 Regiments 1000 men strong and mind you this is all in the time when you have only 2 divisions as you don't need more. In such times these numbers are enough, but once you go Shiloh it is not as nearly enough. And keep in mind that all of those battles were landslide victories for me with casualties inflicted in ranges from 77% to 88%. Choosing to go heavy on the Politics doesn't seem to be solution just because you have to take away in other areas (like economy or training), and if you don't invest into those areas your veterans will cost considerably more and your equipment will be more expensive and scarce. Basically I would have to crunch the numbers but it seems that money gains from Politics are eaten up if you don't invest in training and economy. Also, I am considering of splitting my 1 Corps, 5 Division, 25 Brigades Corps into two Corps as it seems that not all of my units appear on the field, any ideas? 3. Seems more and more to me that Shiloh isn't that hard of a fight. It's a logistical nightmare to get the number of brigades and necessary equipment to make it doable. 4. In all of my attempts I have found out that AI bugs out a lot... could be because of the AI unit sizes, issues with path finding etc. All in all... i'm not gonna surrender just yet... However a tutorial or some hints on how to build a 35 Brigade 2 Army Corps Army for Shiloh would be nice...

And I understand the problem of being limited with the code and necessity to cut back or drop the ideas you have 'cause the game code will not allow for them to be changed... Been there, did that, liked it for a while but got fed up with it eventually... @pandakraut What determines AI's aggressiveness in a given battle?

Yeah I am pretty sure I am talking about the right cannon. And yeah, short to medium range for 3-inch Ordn. is quite good. When I am talking about long range I am talking early game. After the Battle of Philippi you can spend 4 Rep points to get 6 3-inch Ordn. and there are 7 more in the store so it is the only gun you can equip to your starting artillery unit which is equipped with Napoleon 12 pdr that is just underwhelming. I managed to get 4 10 pdr Parrots (just enough for a 2 section Battery) and there are six 6-pounders available prior to Battle of the First Bull Run. Atm there is just not enough of "better" guns to be had and fielded. Situation will improve when coming to Shiloh as some 24-pdrs will be available and more Parrots will open up in the store. Basically it is a matter of "choosing the lesser evil" because 3-inch and Napoleon are just that...two evils you have to use in order to have at least some meaningful artillery support early on. I I find your ramblings really helpful indeed. it is time to "charge into the breach once more". Btw your videos on Camp management are extremely useful and easy to follow... great job

At least AI can figure out how to CARRY AN ENTRENCHED POSITION. And that is something Civil War era generals couldn't figure out for 3 years lol. I am aware of the time speed ups... so on a x3 speed (second to fastest) it still takes way to long for units to break. I did compare stats for guns. I find 3 inch Ordn. good for long range sniping (as it is available as the Union really fast) and i racked up some 3 k kills with it in a single battle...but i will keep this in mind for the future. Thnx for the advice...And keep it up... hopefully Ill crack the NUT called SHILOH eventually lol

@pandakraut Yes, I do invest in accuracy perks but even so, more often than not the AI is just keeping his brigades in front of the fire from 2 or 3 directions without wavering at all. This in turn enables it to stack a column 4 or more brigades deep and then GANG BANG the players lines. As a comparison, my MJ CSA Campaign is going to Peninsular Campaign (just finished the battle of First Winchester)...There a 1 star Union Brigade taking fire from 3 of my 2 star Brigades and a battery of Napoleons (point blank) and 3-inch Ordnance for 10 minutes without flinching... That is what essentially breaks the AI in a way you have to exploit programming errors to get the win although you are doing everything right. However on the other hand, the Morale in the Melee feels great and really intuitive...There are some AI UBER BRIGADES that can slice up players entire line in a single charge but overall melee morale is good. Yeah... in my campaign AI shoots at skirmishers and charges the main line infantry, ignores the skirmishers completely in that case. Also, I don't like using skirmishers as assault infantry 'cause it doesn't sit right with me. To charge a 1.000 strong Skirmisher unit in a melee against a brigade of line infantry is exactly the exploitation of programming that I was talking about 'cause there should be no way a line of skirmishers would ever charge and survive such an encounter. I get it its a game but that is a hack move that essentially throws off the AI. Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining... As you see I detected stuff I could do to win, I just want to see if there is a possibility to win by doing everything right and not using hacks and programming faults. Have a good day Also on the side note... seems I don't have optimal starting career points for the Union on Major General difficulty. so whats the best/optimal setup and choices before the Shiloh to do it as least painful as possible? appreciate the help

First of all I want to say you are doing a great job with this mod... just keep it up 😃 Now... to the matter at hand... I've been playing this game for almost 2 and a half years now and started Union campaign on Major General Difficulty... Oh man, what a reality hit I got...Had to restart intro mission for several times just to get to phase 2 and massive Rebel counterattack...The second mission (where I had to protect the supply forts) proved to be difficult and challenging also...Not to mention First bull Run... But somehow i managed to do it... And then... Enter the great AI charge yo to death battle also known as Shiloh... Oh man... Number of times Rebels made me new one on that map is beyond count... But it makes the game extremely challenging... After few takes i concluded that I am probably doing something wrong (most likely the worst mistake was allocation of my career points prior to Shiloh) so I started MJ Campaign as Confederates also... That one is going without too much trouble which tells me that my tactics as the Union are also sound. By tactics i refer to fluid defense, always seeking the flanks of charging enemy, using the supporting brigades when I do get charged... However with Shiloh battle there seem to be 2 major issues (that can't be influenced by player): 1. number o 2 and 3 star units for Rebels is simply too much... I don't mind being outnumbered and facing 3-5 k brigades rushing towards my lines but the fact remains that many Confederate Brigades are capable of withstanding 3 point blank canister rounds from multiple batteries (some on their flanks) and too much musket volleys (again from multiple brigades)...The amount of time and resources required to break those 2 and 3 star brigades when doing everything right is simply ridiculous. And I am not taking into consideration people who chose to play with static defense instead of using in depth defense. 2. players success at the moment depends too much on one of the following: favorable deployment of Rebel AI troops - this essentially means if AI decides to group larger number of brigades on a single focal point (on the creek below the Shiloh church) then a player has a good chance of deflecting his charges (at least for some time) using advance and fall back tactics. If Rebels deploy in 2 brigades deep across the line going east to west there is no way a player can defend the line as there is no possibility to focus fire from batteries or advancing brigades to exploit flanks of the enemy without risking breach in several spots in the lines. mass overuse and spam of skirmisher units which basically breaks the AI and is in a sense a cheat or a hack as it exploits faults in AI's programming because for whatever reason AI will not charge or push into skirmishers as much as in light infantry. AI is content to keep its distance and engage in a shootout with players skirmishers that are hidden in trees or behind cover which in essence buys player a lot of time (or enough time) to break the enemies one by one. As it stands now... Shiloh for Union needs a lot of work..because without resorting to exploitation of AI's faults there is hardly anything a player can do to stem the tide of STEROID BRED REBELS that just throw themselves head on in everything that you throw at them... I don't even have a problem with their big brigades having 2 or 3 stars...but, their morale needs to be tweaked as at the moment they just don't care what shoots at them. They don't need to rout from a single volley, but a wavering and retreating to reorganize for another assault makes way more sense than standing in front of 20 odd guns shooting canister and 4 brigades pouring lead into them.