Austrum

Honestly I am just having nothing but bad experiences myself. I take a mission. Sail to the mission. Before I enter the mission there isn't one player ship pirate ship anywhere even on the horizon, not one ship near me at all. I join mission, fire one broadside at the mission NPC ship and all of a sudden not one, not two, but three Player Pirates have entered the battle. I mean seriously WTF? There was not one Player Pirate ship anywhere near the mission when I entered so how the hell do they reach and enter my battle?? I am sorry but if the enemy isn't even in spyglass range on the open sea when a battle starts, they shouldn't have time to join my battle. Had this same issue with players in my own nation. I get into a battle thinking it is just going to be me and the NPC and then a whole slew of people show up entering the battle. Seriously I understand you should be able to join but the timer should be something like 30 seconds, not 5 mins or whatever crazy level it is set at currently. In any case, I was ready to come back into the game. After the experiences of my first few hours back....yeah not so much.

It is funny that this topic happens to be up at the top of the forums because I haven't played since Open World came and and had came back her hoping they are re-opened sea trials. I really, really miss Sea Trials. Anymore I just don't have the time to dig deep into a fully featured MMO but I do usually have a few hours to spare and would love to just be able to log into the game and get right into some action without having to worry about any of the stuff like losing ships and such that comes into play with the Open World aspect. Honestly when I bought into this game I was under the impression that Sea Trials was going to be a mode that was always in and an option to play outside of the Open World full featured MMO. Basically I thought it was going to be both types of game in one so as to appeal to a wider player base and player moods. In any case I guess it is pretty obvious what I would like to see and that is a combination of the two game modes being available. Perhaps you log in and are prompted with two option. Click "Sea Trails' and you get dropped into the lobby for an arena style MMO experience with full F2P cash shops and such or you can click "Open World" and you get dropped the fully featured open world experience. Obviously your progression doesn't carry over from one to the other but it would give you the option of how you wanted to play the game at any given point. I mean I don't really see what they don't do something like this. Games like WoT, WT and others have proven that Arena style MMOs can be a massive cash cow and they already had a very decent Arena style game with the Sea Trials that just needed a bit of polish to make fully functional. Then, with the money they could earn there from a cash shop and premium time, they could have used that cash to accelerate the pace of development on the Open World MMO. Basically they could already by rolling in cash and have a full studio working on creating new ships, features, etc. In any case, yeah I am kind of stuck. Love the game play but not really interest in the Open World at the moment and I guess Sea Trails isn't coming back soon so guess I am back to waiting.

I think the relevance was in regards to the possibility of being able to buy 1st rate premium SOLs and might skew how large societies operate but yeah we got massively off topic.

Players have a choice in EVE in fact that entire game is about choice. You can choose to play up in safe Hi Sec space and just PvE all day along, you can solo or you can group, you can join a small corp and PVE or hell go in and PvP to your heart content in small like cheap frigates. You can join a large corp and have access to all their resources or you can start your own corp and grow it to epic proportions. Basically you get to chose what you want to do and no one and nothing is there to stop you, that is the true Genius of a sandbox MMO. As far as this game, I see it the same way. You make a choice how you want to play. I mean it shouldn't be to hard to put together a small fleet of small Frigates or Corvettes and go pirate hunting or plundering your enemies merchant shipping. Then again perhaps you want to create a large shipping association and found your own port somewhere on the Florida Coast. Maybe you just want to concentrate on trading and manufacturing. Then again maybe you just want to be part of a large shipping association and piggyback off them to gain a 1st rate and go wreck face in port battles. Pretty much the sky is the limit and just like EVE, only you, yourself impose limitations on yourself.

Yeah I feel the same way. Already got more than my fair share of value out of the game and willing to pay more. Really looking forward to some cool premium ships I can purchase.

You don't understand anything about EVE obviously. First player corporations have evolved to the scale of large nations in terms of economies and naval power. They even have a full time Ph'D level economist that works for CCCP to keep the in game economy balanced it operates at such a large scale. That being said, at the highest levels, you have play societies operating at something like the levels of a nation including all the political maneuvering, espionage, double dealing, embezzlement, corruption and what not that goes on in the real world. However this isn't the social aspect of the game, not at its base level anyway. The Social aspect of EVE generally resides in smaller segments of these large corps, maybe a group of buddies the make up a fleet or perhaps even in a small corporation of maybe 20 members. Usually this players, the vast majority of them are good friends, just out to have a good time. As far as Naval action. Unfortunately there is absolutely no way to insure that the game or players conform to history which is why you have to look to a game like EVE with its massively large player societies which are backed by massive wealth and military power and how they will influence the game world. Best way to view Naval action is a sort of "Alternate Reality" where the players are going to write the history. (note: Alternatively, I guess Games Labs could play the national powers and sail a massive NPC fleet over and squash the players who get out of line with god mode ships, but that wouldn't be too much fun).

We only have 7000 players on a game that has had virtually no recognition or marketing. How big do you think it might get after it has recognition and marketing? Also look too EVE Online again. They have about 300k subscribers which is rather small for an MMO today and they have Corporations running around with 1000+ members, not to mention the huge alliances consisting of many smaller corps. Massive player owned Navies will happen, guarantee it if the game is even half way successful. To bring this back on topic. I wonder how premium ships will be utilized by these large societies, if at all other than just some players wanting premium ships?

We are talking large scale battles here backed by large Clans with lots of resources. You can pretty much guarantee they will be using 1st and 2nd rates in their lines of battles WHEN they are planning to go head-to-head with other large Clans. Will they be common for daily use? No, not hardly but big clan battles? Yes. Also Titans aren't that uncommon any more. I read all the time where two of the big player corps end up going at it and both sides end up losing a dozen titans each despite the efforts and resources involved with constructing even a single Titan. Still Battleships are by and large the most common ship used even in these large battles in EVE and I envision 3rd rates to fall into this category....expensive enough to hit the wallet but not so expensive that an average player, even a solo player couldn't recover from a loss with a few hard weeks of game play. I disagree. If they are easy to acquire, everyone will be using 1st rates and when that is the case, the whole game goes to hell. 1st rates should need the resources of several hundred members working together to acquire and build and losing one in battle should be painful even for these large guilds/clans/player associations or whatever they will be called. Largest ship a solo or small clan should be able to manage is maybe a 3rd rate. Honestly they really need to look to EVE Online in this game because it is a workable and sustainable model that fits what this game is trying to do.

Overall this is kind of the direction I figure they might go in though I would like to see perhaps up 4th and 3rd rates (excluding super frigates for other reasons) because ships 3rd rate and lower will be the workhorses in the game. As for the case for 3rd and 4th rates being available. Well it is kind of like the case for Tier 8 premium tanks in WoTs. They aren't large enough to dominate a large scale clan based battles but are at least big enough to participate. The large scale battles will still need mostly 1st and 2nd rate ships to carry the battle but smaller clans and/or individuals without grand scale levels of resources could still look to a premium 3rd rate as a way to be competitive. Also keep in mind, premiums are far from free. They will still cost significant resources to repair especially something the size of a 3rd rate so losing a premium 3rd rate in battle is still going to pinch the finances of these smaller clans or individuals significantly. As far as Super Frigates, honestly I view them as Top Tier ships in their own right. Sure they could never face a first rate in the line of battle but as escorts, raiders, privateers, pirates, hunting packs and virtually every other open sea general use aside from major fleet engagements, these are going to be at the top of the food chain. In fact for premiums, I think each general size of ship should be tiered. Line Ships - 3rd and 4th rate only Frigates - up to 12lb gun armed only Small ships - ??? Traders - only up to XXX tonnage cargo capacity. Something like this.

Ok first we know nothing is set in stone. However I read that they were thinking that they might make it so premiums had unlimited durability and might have a lower repair cost. After researching it more, perhaps I misread the part about the reduced repair cost because I can't find the post now. Still my point was very valid even if you remove the repair cost difference from the equation. Again, some theories that I hope you don't bash be about. We know it is going to cost "X" amount to build a ship. We also know that once this ship is built it will have 5 durability correct. Now from an economic standpoint, the value of the new, pristine 5 durability ship has to exceed the repair costs of the ship. Why? because if it does not, then there is absolutely no point to having 5 durability in the first place as it will just be cheaper to by a brand new ship every time you get sunk. Make sense? Further I think it reasonable to assume that the sale value of a brand new, 5 durability ship should likely exceed the cost of losing the ship and repairing it 5 times. Why? Because again, if this is not the case, then there is no value to having 5 durability levels and the devs might as well just remove durability from the game. So unless it is just super easy to build ships on your own (lets hope not) shipbuilders are likely going to be charging at least 5.5 to 6 times the average costs to repair a ship 5 times. I mean it just makes sense economically for these builders to charge at least this much more for a new ship to insure it has an appropriate value. So lets work with this assumption. Again lets say that a new ship will cost 10,000 gold to purchase with 5 durability. This value will be set at 10,000 gold due to the fact that it costs, on average 2,000 gold to repair. (note it is possible that the resource cost to build a new ship might only be 2,000 gold, but builders will want to make a profit that makes sense based on the fact that the ship can be repaired 5 times). Again lets hope that not everyone can own a ship yard and build their own ships so we can actually have a working economy. Ok lets move forward. Non-premium: 10,000 gold purchase price, 2,000 gold average repair cost, total investment of 20,000 gold for 5 lives, 30,000 gold if you count the cost of a replacement ship. Premium: Cash purchase, zero gold. 2,000 gold average repair cost, total investment of 10,000 gold for 5 lives, zero gold replacement cost. There is still a significant value to owning and using a premium ship but only if the player is always using the premium ship. As soon as the buy and use any non-premium that value goes away and most people will not being using premium ships all the time.

Nothing is guaranteed, that is just what was said at one point. However, I will go as far as saying that there needs to be some value associated with premium ship or at least some value directly related to cost. For example, I would not likely buy a premium ship that wasn't persistent, ie unlimited durability through I guess if I could pick up a ship with only 5 durability for around a $1.00 I might consider it on rare occasions. Further, I wouldn't buy even a persistent ship if it actually cost more to repair it than a non-premium ship because then I would be spending hard earned real money to generally put myself at a disadvantage economically in the game. Also I wouldn't buy a ship just based on cosmetics without some sort of additional attached value. On the other hand, I would buy a very cool looking premium ship that had the same repair costs and general performance of another, non-premium ship as long as it had unlimited durability and would probably be willing to pay maybe $15-$20 for something the size of a nice Frigate. Of course the value here is still the unlimited durability which reduces to acquisition and replacement cost as compared to a non-premium ship. Basically there has to be some advantageous value if they are going to want me to part with my hard earned money.

You know some people seem to get caught up on this but fail to understand that a MMO is not like a traditional game. A traditional game, you have one flat price because you get one flat game. Basically whatever content you buy a the time of purchase is what content you have at the end of the purchase. Most of these games also do not have a persistent element to them either. This is why a one time flat fee works for those games. Now there are some exceptions like Guild Wars 2, but those exceptions are few. A persistent MMO however, requires near constant investment from the developer. You have server upkeep and maintenance, bandwidth, customer support, transaction processing, 24/7 backend technical support, new content development, ongoing marketing costs, etc, etc, etc. Since these costs are ongoing, going with a "Pay Once, Play Forever" model isn't really sustainable. Eventually the revenue generated for the box sales will run out and when that happens, the game ends. Additionally as this revenue is used up over time, less and less becomes available for support and customer service since they have to try to make it last for as a long as possible. Also since there is no additional reward to be had from investing anything into the game, the game generally gets neglected by the developers are they move on to other, new endeavors, that will generate a profit. This is why except in very rare cases, expecting to be able to "Buy Once, Play Forever" is completely unrealistic. The devs have to have income and that income has to come from more than just the initial box sales. They either have to have subscriptions or they have to sell products that people will actually buy and for people to buy things, there has to be value and benefit. I know I am not going to spend more than a dollar or two on anything cosmetic. That offers no value to me. However I have spent $120 at a time buying mechs in MWO because they confer income bonuses that allow me to acquire things in game 30% faster than without them. That is valuable because it reduces the time I have to invest to get to the things I enjoy in game. However, this value is what some claim gives "unfair advantage" because to them it is unfair I can earn wealth faster than someone not investing a dime of their money. Anyway my points are, that a persistent MMO has to have a source of reoccurring income. Sources for that are a reoccurring subscription or by selling things of value in game. Value in game is relative but whatever is sold in game needs to be valuable enough that it covers the income requires of the developer to keep the game running and improving. If those expenses can be covered by just selling cosmetic items, then fine but don't begrudge the devs if they have to sell something more than cosmetics, something like a premium ship that offers distinct advantages, in order to keep the game moving forward and improving.

Ever heard of something called a "Theoretical example". They are used to get a point across without having hard data to back it up, hence the theoretical part. As far as where I came up with the concept, it was a dev post about how the expected premium ships to work. Not sure what thread it was in but it was mentioned that premium ships would have unlimited durability and reduced repair cost, subject to change of course but still that is what was outlined. My made up data was to try to illustrate the concept of how it would likely work in theory when comparing the cost of using a non-premium ship to the cost of using a premium ship and to illustrate an example of the potential benefit of buying a premium ship based on what information we have at hand.

I think people need to look at PoTBS to get some sort of idea of how accelerated travel will work. Now don't get me wrong, it isn't going to be exactly like PoTBS, but the concept is similar. When your sailing around you will travel faster than the 7-8 knots that a normal sailing vessel would travel in the age of sail. This accelerated rate might by 50 knots or it might be 150 knots but it is not going to be warp travel but rather more like a speedboat traveling on the ocean or at most the pace of a slow plane or helicopter none of which is going to be traveling fast enough to to worry about smacking into an island without warning.

Your statement doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Form what I have read the benefit of buying a premium ship is it has unlimited durability plus lower repair costs. That being the case, it should never be more expensive than buying a new ship. For example: Normal Ship: New ship with 5 durability = 10,000 gold. Ship sinks and now you have 4 durability + 2,000 gold repair cost. Ship sinks 4 more times and you now have no ship plus your have spent 20,000 gold on up keep. Now you have to spend 10,000 gold to buy a new one and start over. Premium Ship: New ship with unlimited durability = $50.00 CASH. (You save 10,000 gold initial investment) Ship sinks, you still have unlimited durability + 1,500 gold repair cost. Ships sinks 5 times but still has unlimited durability and total repair at this point is only 7,500 gold. Then lets look long term. Ship sinks 20 times. Normal ship = 80,000 gold invested. Premium ship = 30,000 gold invested. Longer term. Ship sinks 40 times. Normal ship = 160,000 gold invested. Premium ship = 60,000 gold invested. Basically as long as you use the premium ship, your operation cost is going to be significantly cheaper which is what your $50 real world investment is buying you.... faster progression (due to progression really being tied to wealth) and convenience (easier to replace your ship, less wealth grind involved.) However, as I mentioned earlier. 95% of the people who buy one or more premiums will still use non-premium ships 80% or greater of the time because they will want a 1st rate or several of the non-premium frigates will be better than the premium ones or because they like the looks of a particular non-premium ship or because they need a trader and cannot afford to by a premium version because they already by a premium frigate or whatever reason. That being the case, the overall impact of premium ships will be rather small with most people using a premium at least eventually as fall back ships for when replacing their non-premium losses becomes too expensive.